Today I'm in conversation with Naureen Hunani a multiply divergent Registered Dietitian from Montreal, Canada.

Naureen works across both pediatric and family nutrition and is also the founder of RDs for Neurodiversity, a neurodiversity-informed online continuing education platform for dietitians and helping professionals.

Join us as we chat about accepting difference, centering lived experience and creating safer spaces for neurdivergent clients and clinicians.

Such a great conversation. Let's dive in.

Links, resources & mentions

rdsforneurodiversity.com

RDs for Neurodiversity on Instagram

Episode Transcript

Laura Jean 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the dietitian values podcast. Today I am really looking forward to diving into conversation with my guest. Today we have a Naureen Hunani on the podcast and Naurine is a paediatric and family dietitian with over 15 years of experience. Naureen is based in Canada, and she has a background in working with feeding, feeding difficulties which her journey started with her own children. And she has been working around the area of picky eating and feeding disorders and has a wealth of experience around that. I first came across Naurine through her work through RDs for neurodiversity, which is a neuro diversity informed online continuing education platform for dietitians, and helping professionals and Naurine does that also, she's got extensive experience working with neurodivergent families, including autism spectrum disorder, ADHD, sensory processing and anxiety disorders. And she's a supporter of early diagnosis and a lived experience. And I wanted to bring Naurine here to have a conversation with her to talk about her perspective, which I've really appreciated, learning more from and to talk about her work and her, I suppose, passion for what she does. So thank you so much, Naureen for coming and having a chat.

Naureen Hunani 1:31

Thank you, Laura, for having me on your podcast.

Laura Jean 1:34

No worries. And I didn't check before we started to record sorry, Naureen. Did I pronounce your name correctly? Hopefully?

Naureen Hunani 1:42

Yes.

Laura Jean 1:45

I normally try to check so that I've, I've got that. And then I realised Oh, I forgot to check. But anyway, let's dive in. So I've given you a very, very brief, you know, the formal bio intro but I'd love if you would like to just kind of let us know in your own words or like, with the highlights that are important to you sort of where you're at now the work you're doing, and what what's brought you here?

Naureen Hunani 2:08

Yes, absolutely. So I am a multiply neurodivergent registered dietician, I have a private practice in Montreal, Canada, where we treat children and families experiencing feeding difficulties, many of whom are neurodivergent. And I'm also the founder of RDs for neurodiversity, which is an online continuing education platform for professionals who want to build more anti oppressive, neuro diversity informed practices. And as you know, Laura in dietetics, we have no framework that aligns with Disability Justice or neurodiversity affirming care. So I decided to create one. And I guess that's what I've been working on the last a couple of years. The the model that I have developed is called the neurodiversity affirming model. And it's a model that validates and affirms neuro diversity to people's experiences that recognises that neurodiverging people are an essential part of our society and deserve respectful and affirming care. So really moving away from the medical model. And embracing the social model of disability the diversity model. In terms of how you know, I got here, it's a long story. But I'll try and condense it. So I'm, honestly, it's been quite a journey, I initially became interested in the intersection of neurodiversity and feeding differences, because of the challenges that I faced feeding my children so almost a decade ago. And it's an intersection that's not really explored enough feeding differences in neurodivergent people are not very well understood by many providers. And so when I was trying to get help, it was really, really difficult to find support that truly felt affirming. So I decided to specialise in working in this area helping and supporting neurodivergent people with selective eating, ARFID. And in the last few years, I've had the privilege to speak on multiple international and national platforms. And I've trained hundreds of professionals worldwide.

Laura Jean 4:35

You've been busy Naureen

Naureen Hunani 4:37

Yes, I have.

Laura Jean 4:41

And I really love you know that that experience, well I don't love that you had that experience, but you know, the way you've kind of come around that and what you've been working on is something that yeah, that we really, really need. We really need that appreciation of difference across so many areas of dietetics, But yeah neurodiverse neuro diversity and the lived experience piece, I think that you bring in is such a strength which I say comes through in in the messages and the information that you share and the work you're doing. And so what's your kind of big picture dream then for like for dietitians, our profession for our culture, when it comes to neuro diversity when it comes to considering lived experience?

Naureen Hunani 5:29

Yes, so you know, it's interesting, because neurodivergence is often judged from the outside by its appearance, what it looks like, and not necessarily from the inside, according to how it is experienced by the person by the neurodiverse person. Right? So and just to give you an example, the majority of the studies that you'll find on autism and eating and eating challenges, or ADHD, and eating differences, there, they're conducted by neurotypical researchers, often comparing neurodivergent folks and their behaviours to neurotypical people, right. And so what that does, in my opinion, is it creates this pathologizing way of looking at differences. And I would, you know, really like to see more research being, you know, conducted by neurodivergent people. And I think it's really important to look at differences, you know, in a way that is going to be affirming. So how do you know, differences that we see in our clients? How do they serve the clients? Right? I'm always very curious about behaviour and how that behaviour serves, the people I work with. And in order to do that, well, we have to work together and dismantle ableism and other forms of oppression that we see, you know, in our practices and focus more on lived experience.

Laura Jean 7:03

Yeah, and when you were talking there was thinking around too is that there's so many, there's so many parallels aren't there between when think about difference what however it comes up, so neurodivergence, and I'm thinking about my own background in you know, introducing difference around that non diet approach and the whole concept of how research is done and how it is creating that difference in difference being a problem.

Naureen Hunani 7:34

Yes,exactly.

Laura Jean 7:34

versus just what it is a difference Just a difference. And yeah,

Naureen Hunani 7:40

absolutely. Absolutely. And I know that a lot of the dietitians that are HAES aligned or non diet face similar challenges, right. You know, it's interesting, because when I talk about neurodiversity, I often talk about, like, you know, how we support our clients and how we support a neurodiverging clients, but I think we also have to shift our focus towards neurodiverging providers, because I know there's so many of us out there. Um, you know, and what happens is, many of us feel very left out, face a lot of stigma and oppression ourselves, and we don't talk about this. But, you know, I've had a few dieticians, contact me reach out to me, tell me their stories, and they want to be more authentic. But being more authentic comes with risk. And it doesn't always feel safe, right? So many of us feel, you know, don't feel safe for us to be openly neurodivergent. And that impacts our work, right, masking and trying to hide pieces of ourselves definitely impacts our work, how we show up with our clients. So I really hope that we can create more spaces for folks who are different, not just for our clients, but also like for ourselves and for the providers as well.

Laura Jean 8:56

Yeah, yeah. And I think that piece too, like you said, sometimes we come to the first point we come to around the differences around the humans we're working with, and then it's still a bit of a lag until it starts being something we consider as in practitioners. And for the people who are doing this work and how that impacts and whether whether that's obviously a dietitian or provider working in this area, or just working in any area across dietetics. So it's that twofold, isn't it, it's pointing outwards towards the humans we're working with but also towards ourselves and towards the practitioners and professionals we work with around that understanding. I'm often sharing your, your posts with some of the humans that I work with, who are who are neurodivergent. So I think it's really helpful there to be considering that and, the piece you brought up there, and it's something that I'm really conscious of something I'm often talking about is around being authentic bringing your values and being yourself and something I'm really conscious of that is the privilege that comes with that. What I hope is that for those of us who do have that privilege to be able to that the more we do that and more create those spaces so that yeah, people who were that that has been traditionally less safe can, there can be more spaces where where humans can show up as themselves, or Yes. dip their toe into that, at least.

Naureen Hunani 10:27

Yes, absolutely. When we're ready.

Laura Jean 10:31

And lived experience is is something that yes, definitely getting more attention, I think, or maybe I'm just in a bubble. And but rightly so because I think that lived experience is Yeah, a missing piece of the puzzle. It's interesting, because I trained in like the very early 2000s, as in I started uni, uni what we call here in like 2000. And when we learned about evidence based practice, there was a piece in there around things like clinical experience, and that that experience piece was in there wasn't yet quite at the point of thinking about, like the lived experience of humans, but that seems to have been completely dropped off. Now, but that if we thinking about lived experience or or talking about that, like then the role that that might play in our work as dietitians or hopefully will play? What do you sort of feel that? What will How would you kind of describe what does the lived experience mean to you, and the role that you see it can play for the work we do as dietitians.

Naureen Hunani 11:30

Yes. So, you know, our lived experiences is tied to our identities, right? And my identities, impact my work, and how I show up with my clients. And so I'm a multi ple, neurodivergent cisgender brown woman of South Asian descent. And although I hold multiple marginalised identities, I also have many privileges. I'm educated, financially secure. So all of that impacts my work and how I show up in the world, and how I interact with my clients. And, you know, I do not have the same challenges when it comes to food and eating compared to many of my original clients. Even though I do have sensory processing differences. They don't impact the way you know, I interact with food, I mean, they do but not in a way that is very different compared to the folks around me. So I need to be aware of my own biases, and do the important work and learn from those who have faced challenges, right. And my hope is that providers will do the same thing about their identities, how their oppressed identities and dominant identities show up in their work. And lived experience is evidence, there's a huge focus, like you mentioned in the university, when I think about lived experience that brings me back to university as well, but evidence based practices, and it brings me back to university. And I remember, you know, we're being told, you have to question everything that's not evidence based. And that's how I practice when I initially graduated. And while I see the importance of science and research, I can't help but to reflect on how there's no true objectivity in research either, especially when we look at neuro diversity. When we dig deeper into who our informants are there often folks who hold more dominant identities, right? So evidence based research can actually be oppressive if, you know, especially when we start implementing practices and that come from research that was not conducted on folks, you know, with dominant identities. So I think it's really important that we have to do more listening and really learn from those with lived experience.

Laura Jean 14:06

Yeah, and yeah, that questioning it's interesting about how we, I don't know how much that's encouraged now, but like how that for some of the stuff you see but the questioning was really encouraged around we have to question but it's like we have to question everything else but except the science. We tell you, you know, the science you don't question this question everything else that doesn't like support this. And in I can remember some classes or specific kind of examples of being really that questioning, questioning clients, you know, questioning their truth and the, the information that they give us, and that was really, I do remember that being definitely embedded in training and I think it's still embedded across some aspects of our professional. Yeah, our profession that to not believe as the kind Starting Point, which I think is a real disservice to us, but also such a disservice to the humans that we work with. Absolutely. And so thinking about that, or in light of the kind of those kind of areas, what do you think that for dietitians that we need to be considering about so like, if you've got a dietitian, human to human sitting in front of somebody in in a sort of space holding or clinical scenario, depending how people think of it, but then also collectively as, as dietitians about lived experience, and, and just the impact or the potential for impact it can have when we actually incorporate it and, and build it into kind of your reference points when working with humans?

Naureen Hunani 15:40

Yes, yeah, I think it's so important, you know, to to reflect on how we support our clients, but don't share the same lived experience. And this is, you know, I think, especially important when, when using frameworks and models, and, you know, I think majority of us, you know, regardless of your type, we most humans, I feel, prefer structure, and we like predictability. And that's why, you know, many of us use models and frameworks, because it just gives us, that's, it makes us feel safe. But sometimes what happens is that, you know, this desire to be to have the structure and be, you know, so predictable, and have guidelines can lead us to becoming more rigid in how we practice. And so what happens is, we unintentionally try and fit our clients into boxes, right? Because of the models we're comfortable with. And I think it's really important to to reflect on, you know, the frameworks that we use, like, who developed these frameworks? Who was it originally designed for? And then think whether the framework was designed, you know, with marginalised identities in mind, right? And if not, then how are you going to adapted according to your client's lived experience, and their identity? So, I mean, I see some of these issues with with, for example, you know, the, the division of responsibility, I see some of these issues, you know, with intuitive eating when applied to rigidly You know, when working with neurodivergent people, and when a subset of population is having a difficult time I find adhering to certain guidelines, and we really have to stop and question like, what are we doing? And what's going on, really look at the bigger picture. And, you know, it's interesting, because when we look at, you know, many of us need to, we seek out continuing education. And when I look at what's offered out there, and in terms of what's available to us, I think it's really important to also focus on, you know, attending conferences, courses that are offered by folks with lived experience, I think this is something we need to see more of, like, personally, I'm trying to learn more about, you know, how to learn more about trans affirming care. So I want to learn from a provider who has lived experience, right, so that makes sense. So finding the right teachers, you know, includes finding folks with with lived experience.

Laura Jean 18:25

Yeah, there's that opportunity for us to it, like you were saying before, you know, widen that lens and get that information from the perspectives and the the experiences that we don't have, like we don't hold and we can't challenge those those biases, or permit me to broaden or deepen our understanding by, you know, relying on somebody else's opinion of what's happening, or somebody like third party telling, you know, it's a little bit like Chinese whispers, isn't it? If that's the space were getting all of our information or education from? So I think that's, that's a really important piece and something that I heard when you were just talking there, which I really thought was so valuable around some of the why around why maybe we use certain frameworks or stick to them around that safety. But then there's that opportunity to question it and what I was thinking there was safety versus discomfort, I think sometimes potentially, as health professionals, we don't want to feel uncomfortable. And so potentially, we think we're doing it for safety, for our safety for the safety of the humans we're working with to protect the safety of people. But it might more be about our own personal discomfort situation.

Naureen Hunani 19:36

Yeah. And it often is you You are so right, because it provides us with Regulation and Safety. But it may not be doing the same thing.

Laura Jean 19:50

No, yeah. And I don't know about you, potentially, obviously, holding different identities potentially there's always been there might be more, that feeling Have around safety but as a, as somebody who holds a lot of dominant or well resourced identities I”m white, you know, cis, thin, middleclass, you know, tick tick tick just got to, you know, I'm only lacking probably one and true safety like true feeling unsafe is not been an experience it at is really discomfort and over my experiences you know professional experience what it's been is that challenging and you know I'm at a point I suppose in my professional and personal life where I realised that if I'm not feeling uncomfortable, I'm probably there's probably more work here to be done, you know, there's probably things to be pushed when it comes to the spaces and areas and holding space for other humans and in challenging the status quo. And I feel like for those of us who do hold more privilege, who it is truly a discomfort over a safety thing that that that's the opportunity for us to really step into that and just be uncomfortable so that we can hold that for other humans or, you know, try and try and do that because for us it isn't isn't been unsafe, you know, whereas for some of the professionals that we work with and share dietetics with or for the humans we're working with, it's truly a safety issue.

Naureen Hunani 21:23

Absolutely, I completely agree with you. And, you know, there's no growth if there's no discomfort,

Laura Jean 21:29

no and in the I suppose in to in the power dynamic that exists as as we currently practice or as our profession is kind of set up then in for even for dieticians, who are holding other identities, and potentially, you know, just being the dietitian holds the dominant identity. And so creating that taking on potentially a little bit more of that discomfort to create less for the humans that we're working with is probably something I'm just kind of thinking about now as we're chatting. And so the experience, obviously offers as as one part of that is what I sort of see, you know, adding more awareness more consideration for for that and incorporating that into our work. And then I think the piece that kind of goes along hand in hand with that is then thinking about potentially questioning our understanding, we talked to touch on it briefly around evidence based practice. And what do you think sort of like or what has been your experience or when you're sort of working in supporting dieticians? What do you encourage or, I suppose tease out there around how we think about evidence based practice and how we currently kind of use it or position it within our toolbox?

Naureen Hunani 22:44

Yeah, I think that we have to really, you know, ask ourselves, you know, who's doing the research? Why are they doing the research and who's really benefiting? Right. And again, you know, going back to the, the neuro diversity piece, you know, initially, when, when I was introduced to neuro diversity, one of the first things I did was I started looking at textbooks, I started looking at, you know, resources developed by neurotypical people. And I just felt like, no, this there's something something's not right. And so, when I started looking into resources that were actually developed by neurodivergent people, that's when I had like, that aha moment, you know, was so enlightening. So I think it's really important to, to, to really see will will, you know, the research? Yes, it's, it's scientific, but who is conducting it? And what's really the real purpose behind it? And, of course, you know, I mean, if we look, for example, even at the DSM, for example, it has a horrific past, it still is very much, you know, based on the medical model, folks with marginalised identities continue to be excluded from research. And what what we're seeing more and more of is self diagnosis, especially in the autistic community. And so it's something that is very normalised because access to even access a diagnosis is difficult in the majority of the research that was conducted in autism was conducted by middle age, you know, men on young boys, and it's the same with ADHD. So women have been completely left out and have been silently suffering. And so you know, this idea of self diagnosis can be uncomfortable, but because there's so much gatekeeping, you know, it's important to to, again, validate that lived experience, like many, many of the clients, especially the women I work with, self identify, you know, will self diagnose first and then they'll go get it. Professional diagnosis if they have access.

Laura Jean 25:05

I think that's a really important piece. And you sort of said there, you know, that it that it is uncomfortable potentially as dietitians for that, when when we're thinking about self diagnosis, and it's a, I think there's that both/and space in there isn't there, across, across lots of things. So within this, I'm sort of thinking because, you know, nothing is black and white. So like when we're thinking about neuro diversity and neuro divergence and, and human sitting in front of you saying, you know, that they've, that they've identified that then that it's that incorporate I mean, it's a true incorporation of the experience there isn't it's like, Okay, well, that's exactly what it is. And potentially, there is, I think that often our default is to go Well, have you, you know, and the reason was I thinking about it through my own past experience of working with bowel stuff, you know, when in gi in the GI world where it's often like, Okay, come on, we got to get the testing done, you know, more to rule out things. But I think it's that sitting with that, around that, that that is enough that we don't need. We don't need to, to question maybe there's times when it might be supportive for access to support or access to funding and resources. Absolutely. But, but yeah, like you said that there's that real gatekeeping around that. And from my understanding, and like, you just sort of touched on, you know, for certain people, women, particularly or female, identifying, or female, get that. The idea? I'm sorry, I've lost my thought there. But the Yeah, actually getting a diagnosis or the the use of the criteria around diagnosis and things like you said, it's being developed on a whole other population doesn't apply?

Yeah. Yes, I think there's so much for us to be aware of, and just to be questioning and be curious, and questioning ourselves around around why we might. Yeah, why were our own ideas of what is evidence and what is quote unquote, yep, enough, around that is it comes from and like, and who benefits from it, and also who gets off the hook when we which I know you're familiar with Kelly deals worksheet talks about that all the time, which is which is one I always keep in the back of my mind, you know, that those two questions around around anything, you know, so that we can actually build our own analysis versus just relying on yet the so called potentially an objective evidence that we have available. And I've learned so much from following along with or connecting to you, but also, you know, your the resources that you share, and the reframing particularly for health professionals, you know, around just challenging some of those perceptions around food and feeding stuff is obviously that's your wheelhouse, you know, and how we, how we really erase difference and how we, how we how that comes into our, our work. And then so I know you've talked a little bit about it. So if for dieticians, who want to get more, potentially more comfortable or just more experience or more skills, more tools around this area, what should we be be thinking about considering or looking to around? When if you if people are working with other humans? I mean, we are we all are working with humans at different places, you know, it all humans and neuro diverse, so what to consider and how to be mindful of that and not not not erasing difference. I suppose. I'm not trying to fit people into that little box.

Naureen Hunani 29:04

Yes, no, I think that, you know, I find I mean, I can, you know, speak about the clients that I work with, and the majority of the clients I work with are children and teens. And often what ends up happening is that a lot of these children who do struggle with eating struggle because we live in a society that doesn't accept their feeding differences, right? So this idea that everyone should be a foodie and that everyone should be able to, you know, enjoy a variety of textures or variety of flavours, you know, they don't fit into that mould. And so caregivers have a really difficult time supporting them because, again, eating is something that you know, our society tells us that it's something very easy to do and that everyone should be able to eat with it though abroad. It foods and textures and whatnot. And so what happens is that a lot of the time these these challenges are just differences that just need more accepting. I find that, you know, what happens is that as providers, we feel so much pressure to want to fix things, right? How are we going to fix this problem or fix the child's eating? And I think we need to really let go. You know, and instead really try and build practices where connection to self as possible, right? And really focusing on connection and really understand, you know, the why, and how differences can actually, you know, serve our clients. I think way too many children spend time in in therapy and exposure therapy, and all types of treatments, you know, which can cause a lot of trauma, sensory trauma. And, you know, it's interesting, because when we work with neurodivergent clients, right, we don't think about how their differences can actually, you know, impact them just being physically present in therapy, right? So sensory trauma, for example, being in a different environment, different smells, light lighting, compliance. So a lot of children from young age are taught to just comply and listen and hold that can be traumatic, and the social trauma and, you know, there's just so much that happened. So I think we need to normalise different ways of eating and, you know, different ways of interacting with food as well. And really questioning Well, how do we uphold certain oppressive systems, right, so for example, if we look at table manners, and I know some of the, the the models that are that are used in pedes, and feeding, you know, talk about that table matters. And if a child is not, you know, behaving nicely, well, then, you know, tell them to go in a room or like, you know, maybe do like a timeout or something like that, and how traumatic that is for neurodivergent children who have a difficult time sitting still, or may still be eating with their hands, or may have motor problems and, you know, may interact with food in a different way. And so I think ableism is, is something that we really have to you know, we really, really have to work together in and dismantle ableism in in our profession.

Laura Jean 32:49

Hmm. Yeah, I think some of those really, it's that question, it goes back to that question isn't so like, the why, why are we and I know that I read your one on table, your post on table manners, and it was something that really, really made me think about, then we're like, why, like, where does that come from? And of course, then, you know, there's a lot of oppressive roots to to that piece. And often, we just we do what we, without that question, we do what we've always done, or we do, you know, we just kind of go along with it. And I think that, that it just all comes together, doesn't it? And I love you talk to that connection piece there. It's that connection, connecting to the humans, we're working with understanding that lived experience and listening to that and bringing it in and getting that then to be an opportunity for us to question like, so. So what have we done? A question what we've done and why we've done it, and questioning why, you know, question ourselves before we potentially are putting that on another human who is telling us about something very different, that they are experiencing? And the other piece of thinking as you're talking there? Is it really I think for non diet, dietitians. Often, you know, because we talked about for we find a new framework or something that that helps us feel safe. with, you know, with you know, it's like okay, yep, this is the one you know, and you know, it takes a lot of Yeah, embracing that discomfort to question and challenge. But I think what, what would be some considerations? Because I think that there's possibly some I know, you've talked to it, and I think, you know, the more you start questioning it, those considerations for here for how we how we can kind of get a bit more into that discomfort around the frameworks, potentially, that we do use in the non diet space that don't necessarily because any framework, any framework, we try and transplant on another human is not going to work ever because everyone's different. And so I think, and there's probably a little bit more I'm seeing around, particularly around the interoception piece around for people with neuro divergence. So what are some things that for non diet dietitians to really be Considering or some questions for themselves, or things in that space to create more, I suppose understanding or more opportunity for them to work with somebody with neuro divergence versus overlaying, potentially yet framework on top of them. Not that that would be what people are trying to do. But even just that little idea that, you know, something I've talked about in the past as a non diet dietitian around, we're all born knowing how to feed ourselves. And I suppose what I've started to question that is, is that is that true for everyone of everyone's experience? I don't know.

Naureen Hunani 35:37

Yeah, yeah. And you're right. I mean, we don't know. And that's why I think listening to the client, our clients and validating their experience is so important, because we don't know, right? And going back to, you know, your, your, your question on interoception, intuitive, like, intuitive eating, what's what's happening is that, because we're all trying to dismantle diet culture, you know, what ends up happening is we present intuitive eating as like the right way, or the normal way of eating, right. And that can cause a lot of harm, especially to those who struggle with interoceptive awareness. Because interoception is such a big component of intuitive eating. And when we, you know, start using terms like this is the right way or the normal way, because that's how, you know, all humans eat. And it's, it's, it can be quite triggering, just because the word normal is very triggering to those who, with brain differences, right? It can't be quite pathologizing. So, you know, I think then what happens in this case, is that frameworks, like intuitive eating, just become another, you know, thing on the list to achieve to feel more normal. Right. And that can feed internalised ableism, it just becomes another should. Right? And, you know, it's interesting, because I guess the way my brain works, I am I'm a deep thinker, I've always been like that, since I was a child, I question things, I look for patterns. And, you know, I, you know, I wonder about how humans have evolved, right? And we didn't have the luxury to to have access to food when we were hungry, like, you know, imagining in my brain, hunter gatherers going around, like, you know, what's your hunger level on skill to one to 10 you know, it didn't really work like that, you know, so and that's why you know, I'm very fascinated by the role of mirror neurons. And you know, how I'm watching someone else eat can actually stimulate hunger, right? Being in community and so that role of community and interdependence um, you know, and and we constantly rely on external cues to feed ourselves right so if you're at work in a building and you smell someone's lunch someone warmed up their food Oh, I should go eat too right? That is that is not the same thing as feeling hunger and then you know, warming your food, your lovely we to rely constantly on extra receptive signals and awareness, right? But what happens is that when new or divergent people do it, well then it becomes wrong, but neurotypicals get away with it all the time. Right? So I think that we have to really question you know, I really think that you know, what I mean, we know we've evolved the reason why we were we are where we are is because we've always lived in communities and that inter interdependence and and how that applies to eating as well.

Laura Jean 39:10

Yeah, that's a really important point. I mean, I'm still a little bit chuckling over the the people yeah, the clan going around the cave. What's your hunger level?

Naureen Hunani 39:21

Yes exactly. Right. Okay, now, now it's a good time to go hunt. No, you go hunt, you're eating people will come and join just they might get hungry just by watching you eat. And that's, you know.

Laura Jean 39:34

Laura Jean 40:09

Yeah, that's just that piece of it, isn't it that real? And like you said that connection. And it's interesting because what I was just thinking when you're talking about which I've never really sort of thought about it in that context, I've never had that kind of conversation like side by side or thought had those pieces side by side about how, actually, which is very much the mo of most most things in our culture of how individualistic then, potentially, some of the tools in intuitive eating can be, you know, that rule, pulling out to the individual Yes. Outside of that connection community around which would what food, like you said, with food, and for people, yeah, that eating in connection and eating with other humans has been the norm, probably throughout evolution, now that we understand. And so those extra deceptive tools were probably very much part of it, you know, again, that both end isn't it, it's not either, or, it's not just use interoception, or just use extra section, but it's, it's the interplay of them, and they can't really be be taken apart, but we try and we try and do that real, real reductionist, like reduce it down to that and disconnect, as an attempt to try and support somebody, but actually lose a lot of the nuance, almost like, you know, the old studies where they pulled vitamins out of foods to study the effect of the vitamin, versus actually how, you know, we lose all that nuance of had the interplay with the food in the meal.Yeah, that's a really, really important piece there Naureen And I don't know that, that there's much Yeah, I've I've not sort of joined that dots there around that individuality have some of those tools there. Myself, so thank you for that. Thank you for that piece, I think that's a really a real great opportunity for anyone listening to really reflect on that to think about.Yeah, around around our whole understanding versus just, yeah, reducing it to particular like tools, as

Naureen Hunani 42:09

Absolutely, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I think,you know, the reason why I feel like this can be so problematic, you know, this individualistic approach for disabled and neurodivergent people is because we often do, you know, depend on others, right? SoI think that pushing this approach, where you can just take care of yourself, and you do not need to rely on others, can be quite damaging to the disabled, you know, the community, right?I mean, if I just, you know, not hunger related, but I'm thinking about myself and mydifficulties that I have, I have several chronic, like, illnesses, autoimmune conditions, and I struggle with chronic pain, you know, I and often I have to ask my husband to open cans for me and open, different packages that I can open myself, right. And so that interdependence piece is so it's so important for people who are disabled and neurodivergent. And it's something that we don't really talk about enough because again, there's so much stigma, right? We should just all be able to take care of ourselves. And that stigma piece is so so strong.

Laura Jean 43:34

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, and that real individualistic pacing. ableism is, is huge, isn't it, because to end and, you know, part of that, I suppose, is because we have a culture that, that doesn't want us to rely on each other does not want us to, to build those connections and that interdependence. yet, and you can see it across so many spaces, you know, I'm now kind of, you know, seeing it in intuitive eating space. Now as we've chatting, obviously, within disability and neuro divergence, and one of my other passion side passions is around, you know, self sustainability and around growing food and things and there's even like a piece of thread through there, you know, the old Henry Thoreau, you know, go to a cabin in the woods and be independent, you know, versus that interdependence. And yeah, as humans, we can't, we shouldn't want to escape that or not Shouldn't I shouldn't say shouldn't because then it brings up things, but I think that there's an opportunity for us to question when we want to escape that. I mean, absolutely, some days I do want to escape to a cabin in the woods. I will not lie to you Naureen

Naureen Hunani 44:40

same here, same here

Laura Jean 44:45

Yeah, so for dieticians, who are wanting to change to unlearn. Why would you suggest they start I mean, potentially you've got a couple of tips or ideas or spaces or places like what would be your recommendation. If somebody was was, was wanting to kind of go a bit deeper than on what we've talked about or just want to start really challenging some of these, these these ideas.

Naureen Hunani 45:12

I mean, I think the first thing is to really explore your own, like our own privileges and how they show up being aware is so important. And then learning from folks with lived experience. People from different communities that you may not be part of and paying people for their labour. So I have a blog up on RDs for neuro diversity, we're invite guest speakers to with lived experience, to to write about,you know, their relationship with food or,or offer advice or suggestions in and I pay all of my bloggers, I think it's really important to pay folks for their labour, especially, you know, if they hold marginalised identities. And, you know, there are people out there that that offer consultations that offer supervision, I mean, I also offer those as well. But you know, the interesting thing I find right now is that the disabled community, the neurodivergent community is very, very active on social media. There are so many accounts that you know, people can follow and learn from folks with the lived experience.

Laura Jean 46:34

Yeah, this there is, it's definitely one of the opportunities that social media gives us. Yeah, that connection. I mean, that's how I connected to you. And you very modestly just touch very briefly on the support that you offer in the work that you're doing. Could you just tell us a little bit about that if there are dieticians who would be interested in learning more about the work you do around supporting dieticians in this area?

Naureen Hunani 46:59

I guess so I, I offer supervision consultations, and I also offer courses geared towards dieticians, courses that dietitians can participate in. We also have a blog on the website as well. And I also have a newsletter that people can sign up to it's a monthly newsletter, to get to learn more about neuro diversity and your diversity from end care.

Laura Jean 47:32

Excellent. And we're so where can people go? If they would like to access that Naureen or just connect a little bit further with you?

Naureen Hunani 47:41

Yes, so people can connect with me via the website. It's called RDS for, for neurodiversity. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook. And the handle was RDS for neuro diversity as well.

Laura Jean 47:58

Excellent. And I'll put all that in the show notes. So right dietitianvalues.com If so that people can just go and click, you don't have to memorise that or write it down and connect with NAureen there to continue conversation or to look at the work that Naureen does. And there's a wealth of resources there that you can access, which is so supportive, the work that you're putting out, and the questioning that you encourage is so needed. So thank you so much for your time today. To be in conversation together. I really appreciate you and really appreciate you offering your expertise and lived experience for us all to yet to learn from our to unlearn from as well.

Naureen Hunani 48:49

Thank you so much for having me, Laura.

Laura Jean 48:52

Excellent. Okay, well, thanks everyone, for taking the time to listen to Naureen and I being in conversation together, I appreciate you too. Taking the time to be here. And if you want to access some more, any of the resources or anything we've talked about today, then hop over and check out the show notes and absolutely go follow Naureen RDs for neuro diversity because it's really something that a space where we can continue to grow and challenge and, and and build our own awareness as dietitians and just as humans humaning in this world. So thanks for your time, and until next time, bye for now.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai