Ep 4: Inclusion with Nailah King
How do we create spaces of inclusion?
That's the topic I'm chatting about today with guest Nailah King. Nailah (she/her) is the founder of The Content Witches. She is a Content Strategist and Storyteller. She helps create communities of belonging with inclusive and ethical words.
In this conversation we talk about reactionary vs responsive action around inclusion, taking language beyond optics and fostering belonging in our communities. It's a good one.
Let's dive in.
NOTE: In the episode we discuss a resource around making an apology. This was verbally attributed to Imani Barbarin but was actually created by Mia Mingus (the resource is correctly attributed and linked below). Nailah apologizes for the misattribution error. Proper citation is an important part of fostering inclusive discussions. She will take greater care to confirm the sources that she intends to reference in future podcast interviews.
Connect with Nailah
IG: @nailah.z.king
Pinterest: /thecontentwitches
Website: www.thecontentwitches.ca
Links, mentions & resources
Episode Transcript
Laura Jean 0:00
Hello and welcome to Episode Four of the dietitian values podcast. Today is our first guest episode. And I am very privileged to bring you this conversation I had with Nailah King. Nailah is the founder of The Content Witches and she is a content strategist and storyteller who uses inclusive and ethical words to build belonging, and community. And I connected with Nailah on Instagram, and I love the way she talks about inclusivity and brings it into her own work. And of course, how she shows up. And I think inclusion and how we create a space for inclusion is really fundamental to a values based business. So enjoy this episode with Nailah. And I will pop all the links to follow along and to get more of Nailah's goodness in the show notes. So head over to dietitianvalues.com and check out the podcast show notes. Okay, let's dive in.
Hello, and welcome. And I'm really excited to welcome a guest today, Nailah king who is a Canadian copywriter based in the UK content writer, sorry, not copywriter, based Edinburgh. Hi, Nailah. Thank you for being here. In spirit
Nailah King 1:24
In spirit, hi, Laura. I'm a Nailah as you introduced me, I'm a storyteller. And I work with lots of great folks on making their content work. I'm so happy to be here chatting with you.
Laura Jean 1:35
Excellent. And that's exactly what I'm hoping to dive into in our conversation today. Talking about inclusion and how as business owners, values based business owners, we can move towards including including inclusion there you go. So would you want to sort of chat a little bit about the work that you do, or what kind of got you to this point.
Nailah King
So I've kind of worked in women only spaces. Pretty much since university, I joined a literary journal, back when I was still living in British Columbia, Canada, in 2011. And that's kind of what kick started my more active activism as a woman in a black body. With the experience of mental illness, I think I had the experience of marginalization kind of baked in, right when I was very, very small. The conversations around racism in elementary school are very different than they are now. So I think in many ways, I've always kind of known the power of words to be harmful and formational. So it kind of has its roots, you know, for me as a child, but in terms of the active, more intentional activism, it started with being part of a feminist literary journal. Once I finished university, and went into the working world, I started working at the bank. And some of the content around this is as it pertains to insurance was really sketchy. And kind of framed people with mental illness in a particular way, which made me kind of uncomfortable. And so that's kind of what really jumped started the move to looking at inclusive language. And then we moved to Scotland in 2019. Because my partner, he was accepted to a master's program. And after some unsuccessful job hunting, that's when I kind of started the business. And it's actually only in the last like six to eight months, just due to the kind of sheer demand largely to do with the events leading up to the unfortunate murder of George Floyd. There's been a lot of extra interest in that. So that's kind of where that journey from start to continuation is.has gone, I should say. So, yeah, it's kind of always been something that I'm doing. But in terms of like, specifically inclusive language that's been a bit more recent.
Laura Jean
Yeah. And I think I think you're right, I think there's that. While for a lot of people, their values may have been pushing them towards being inclusive. I think there's definitely been that acceleration of awareness and action around that area. something I'm conscious of, and I know, probably some of the dietitians, listening and listeners is around finding that space of building awareness and then making the action be responsive rather than reactionary. When it comes to inclusive language. How do you see that that kind of playing out like Do you do you feel that's an issue? Like? Or do you feel there's that we do need to really take that kind of space to, to be? Yeah, to be responsive around language versus that reactionary kind of action.
Nailah King
I think you got,I think the thing that's really great about language is it's evolving all the time. The language that we use around inclusion compared to 2011, to now is very, very different. terms that were in the ether very popular in that starting point of activism we don't use today. So I think it's important from a mindset perspective, to recognize that language is always changing. And while it definitely serves you to remove problematic exclusive language, it's really about putting yourself in environments where you can learn from others. And really think about what you're trying to achieve through the lens of inclusive language. I always say with my inclusive copy audits, part of the form that you fill out to work with me, is you need to indicate your inclusion goals. Part one is that helps me kind of help you. You know, work towards that in the audit. And the other part of that is, it's really a way to check yourself for performativity. Who are you serving by incorporating inclusive language? Like Yes, inclusive language benefits us all but what's the motivation now to incorporate it? And that kind of gets you having a dialogue with yourself? And that pushes you towards more continual actions versus 'Oh, no, someone was on my social media and noticed that I was using outdated word that's exclusive, I have to use inclusive language now', as opposed to maybe you want to create a more inclusive environment of belonging. Maybe that's a more appropriate inclusion goal.
Laura Jean 7:14
I love that goal. And I really liked that. Um, yeah, that bringing back to that, why that questioning and getting really curious around around that. The, while impact obviously, is the most important thing, the intent behind our actions around what we're what we're moving towards, or what what our goal is with, with taking those actions. I think that's a real powerful, powerful piece. And I like how you bring that in there. I think, getting people to really get curious before they before they take action, but even just take action in you know, that that almost that pre contemplative stage of action there? And what are some of the reasons? Or what are some of the kind of goals that you feel that you see most commonly people moving towards using inclusive language? or? Yeah, within their businesses?
Nailah King 8:07
Typically, it tends to be reactionary. They're initially being they've been called in. someone's asked them not to use a particular word. And that sort of ignited the questioning around, you know, am I using the appropriate language? What's the most up to date terminology? things of that nature. And then I think one of the other main reasons is within folks, we're already kind of moving towards this language. They're not necessarily using any exclusive or offensive words, but they still don't feel like the messaging is fostering a sense of belonging. like No, they're not explicitly using exclusive language. But potentially, they're using shame in their copywriting. Potentially, they're not including accessibility on their sales pages. So inclusive language is not always, you know, somebody's used a problematic word or phrase, but it's not actively including folks or not actively giving access. Whether that's missing alt text or, you know, missing context. I think there's many, many layers to inclusive language. But what typically happens in this discussion when it's co opted is it's just left as Oh, here's a big old list of things to not say, remove those things, and you're good to go. And then they're still left wondering why they're still not attracting folks from historically excluded groups. I think it's important that lack of exclusive words doesn't automatically mean people feeling it. That's how Kind of the bare minimum, it's the bare minimum to not say, I use harmful terms of phrase, when we're writing with intention. And we're writing with inclusion. We're coming really from a place of empathy, to let people be seen and know that they're saying that they're being valued. I've also met your responses to instances and fixing instances where you're not those things where you haven't been the most inclusive or you haven't been the most receptive to feedback. I think that's something that is continually missing from the conversations. So that's something that I'm tryingto discuss.
Laura Jean 10:41
I think the cats getting excited for anyone who can hear that that's just, just the cat in the background, so. Ignore.
Nailah King 10:48
Yeah, we played earlier. But apparently, he's still got zoomies. I don't know. I anticipated this. But I was there. Just
Laura Jean 10:56
you know, I, everyone here is very welcoming. I think of everyone being being involved in the podcast. So we welcome welcome cats as well. A couple of things that I really liked, that I liked, but that really stood out to me. There the one about the belonging, I think that piece is, is Yeah, is really like a bit of a game changer in in around around how we come to inclusive language or how we come to consider it. So like, thinking about Yes, we don't want to, you know, quote, unquote, say the wrong thing. So use those exclusionary terms. But But yeah, like, I think you just really encapsulated what, well I know, for me, is that that feeling that I want my language to convey? Not just that I don't offend people, but that it creates that space for belonging or creates a space where people if they want to can step into that space. So yeah, that's not necessarily a space that. Yeah, it's just yeah, just not offending people. But actually, and maybe it is offending certain people, because you don't want them in your space. But belonging, yeah, bringing belonging into that conversation around inclusion. And that's not something that you necessarily see, I like how you've really articulated that is that, I think, and probably from following your work, I would imagine that that does come through a lot for you in in how you like one of your values is would that be fair to say? in your working in your business?
Nailah King 12:26
Yeah, belonging is a huge value. For me, it's really important. And because I occupy all of these different identities, I've had different experiences of marginalization with kind of either identity, I just like to think of the time, you know, when you're young, and you first meet your group of friends, that feeling of comfort and safety. And there's implicit cues, you know, like, you're invited to do things, you're invited to sit with them, you're invited over, like, all these little actions that tell you, this person's my friend, that's kind of what I want copy to do, you know, not just get rid of your sayings. But actually, when they read a sales page to be like, Okay, this is a place for me, because, you know, potentially they have, the coach is experienced, or has experience with dealing with trauma in their participants, if that's something that's my experience, I'm seeing in that experience. If they have an accessible course, that's something that my community can access, so on and so forth. It's really about making sure that you're spelling out all the ways in which you can invite underrepresented folks historically excluded folks into your experience as a business. And that's kind of the more they will talk about the concept of higher self That to me is the more elevated level of inclusion that I would like folks to get to is, rather than, you know, making sure that they followed a checklist, think about all the ways the continual ways that they can continue to invite people in. Yeah, yeah. And up to your point that is going to repel people, ultimately, and that's not always a bad thing part. I largely blame the conversation around, you know, ideal client stuff, you know, you have to attract. It's all about attraction, but actually part of being a good. I don't like to put things in sort of these value buckets, but part of being maybe a savvy business person is knowing that, you know, you can't please everyone and it's actually good to repel people who are not aligned.
Laura JEan 14:49
Yeah, and I think I can say a real twofold to that is one is of course, so that you are working with people that you're aligned with but to go back to what you were saying about creating space. That shows that that signals to people that this is a space where they can come and be, I think by repelling people who make spaces unsafe for people in marg, with marginalized identities and people who have under resourced. I think that is an important part of it as well, for me personally in my businesses is around Yeah, that repelling people so that you don't, and not working with people that don't align with your values, but also so that the people you do want to work to can feel can see themselves more in that space. And while you can't create a space that safe necessarily for other people, that it reduces, lessens the impact of the potential for harm.
Nailah King 15:45
Yeah, totally, I think all of that. And also, it's, you know, the fear of showing up imperfectly or saying the wrong thing, like, of course, it's terrible to say the wrong thing. Like, it feels terrible, I should say. But you have to prepare yourself, because languages evolves, that the thing that was okay to say, even six months ago, might not be the right thing, or the right term to use, I should say, which is why I always suggest to people that they audit their content, every, I would say, like, maximum, wait a year, but even around the six month mark, like do your do your homework, get your Google on make sure that those terms are aligned with you. I'm in the middle of a rewrite for my website. And even within someone who occupies this space, you know, I'm kind of like, Ooh, that's like kind of a hangover from conversion copywriting, I'm not really a fan of the sentence. Because I've changed my outlook on a lot of things. I've been in kind of a more inclusive copywriting space, I've learned new things like you can give yourself the grace of maybe not having the information or the context or the support that you have now six months ago, and you can revisit things. I think it's rka (Rachael Kay Albers), who always says, you know, give yourself permission to change your mind. And I think that's essentially, what good, intentional inclusive writing is, is to look at something that you wrote six months ago, and if you still don't, if you feel like oh, like, that doesn't really reflect where I'm at. I've learned so much about XYZ, I'm gonna change it, that's okay. Too many folks, this is another thing that I've noticed, auditing a lot of copy too. And while I respect the reason for that, you know, screenshots and maybe uneasiness about being called in a particular way, but a website is not fixed. We all have the capability to change things. People tweak websites all the time. So I definitely think, you know, if you undergo a rewrite, just keep chipping away at it doesn't necessarily mean that because you update your website, you know, a year ago doesn't mean it doesn't need a refresh or relook. And genuinely, if we go back and you're like, no, this is still a masterpiece, then that's good. I think just always being in conversation with your copy, like that is really valuable.
Laura JEan 18:30
Yeah, I think that that there's so many benefits to that across, you know, as a business owner, or somebody running a business and how we want to talk to people and communicate with the humans that we want to work with. But I I think the audit pace and and that relevancy and I want to go back, come back to auditing because I'd like to like to ask you like some, some, you know, practical sort of steps people can use but I really want to highlight because you've mentioned a couple of times and because I know that the people listening can get perfectionism, you know, a little bit hung up and I love how you've really, really just shown that yeah, it's not about being perfect because I think something and I know, you know, in the past that I've kind of worked through is around that whole, not wanting to say something because you might say the wrong thing and that whole perfectionism hang up which we can you know, we've all been socialized it's not our own stuff we've been socialized to take that on. And I really appreciate how you how you framed that you're working on inclusion and inclusive languages is that is it it's a work in progress it's about accepting that we're works in progress that we're not going to get it perfect and like you say even if we might you know get it quote unquote perfect today it changes and it shifts and language shifts so that it's about Yeah, keeping keeping open minded. Well, to me what what what it feels like is keeping open minded keeping curious and just checking back in with yourself and and I think to listening and learning and not in that whole like i'm listening learning that came out really, in that kind of way. But you know, being open to getting feedback and getting information from sources that, you know, are going to align with the values you want to be bringing into your business. Yeah, I think that's a really important piece. It's not being inclusive with our language isn't about setting forgetting writing it, tick we've done it. Yeah, like you said, Yeah, we've pulled out all those words, we shouldn't be saying. But it's about creating that sense of belonging, but also just continuously checking in checking in with ourselves and checking in with somebody like yourself or an expert, or somebody that is, in that space that can can help us if we if we need it, or support us to, to to make changes if we need it. Yeah,
Nailah King 20:49
for sure. And I think, you know, being called in is also a gift, I think it takes a lot of effort to reach out to someone to say, Hey, this is this doesn't work. So I definitely want to honor that experience. And being accountable to your community, in a way is also really valuable. And sometimes it's not for lack of, you know, listening. Sometimes there's conflicting conversations, or less clear guidelines. I'll give the example of you know, I had read somewhere that, I mean, they don't really know where I got conflicting information about, if you have all text, if you also need image description, for example, on social media, someone sent me a message about it. And you know, obviously, Imani Barbary [please see note above] has a great post on how apologize. So definitely link to that in the show notes, but definitely was like, Oh, you know, this is that's not acceptable, I apologize, I need to do more work around getting the right information, because Google is free. So I double checked my sources and found out that was largely untrue. So I think it's also good to kind of double check your sources to like not just to check in with yourself, but is this still the authority on whatever topic I think is really important, as well, because I know that there's a lot of blogs, and there's a lot of content out there. But I always recommend to my clients like cross reference WCAG (web content accessibility guidelines), which is kind of the accessibility kind of rule book. Because obviously, when people distill it, and take it down to kind of the quick tips, some context can get lost, which was what happened in this instance, not everybody uses a screen reader. So if you didn't have a stream, if you did a screen reader access, you wouldn't necessarily be able to get that content, which is partly why Additionally, adding an image description is really valuable. Very long story short, is to say that, yeah, just make sure that you're always kind of checking in with those resources. And yeah, remember that is a gift because it takes a lot of effort to build up the courage to approach someone and chat with them and let them know that maybe they need to tweak what they're doing.
Laura Jean 23:19
Yeah, and I think that suddenly get to the popped into my head when you're mentioning that I think Yeah, some and I suppose that comes back to that reactionary versus response kind of piece as well. Sometimes we'll get that information and then we try and action it you know, versus maybe Yeah, like you said, but even if we do, then we can be open and ready to repair and to circle back and to go Oh, yeah, well, like you know, I've done this and this is what I'm going to change or do differently. The other thing that I was just thinking then too or the other thing that kind of keeps popping up to me which is which is obvious but sometimes can get lost as we try and take action is that different people respond differently to language. So people within the same community within the same groups can still respond in different ways to language and and for the dietitians listening we know working in the non diet area you know, some people have reclaimed the word fat and are really comfortable to use that and to hear that and some people you know, living in prefer to be referred to as you know, larger bodied or or they're not comfortable yet with using the term fat so I think too and I'm not sure what your take on this is and Nailah but that often it just is about to check in with who you're trying to who you're talking to the humans that are your, your people, your community around around language, do you have any tips or ways that we can we can do that that we can check in or ways that you use yourself around checking in with around language, I mean, we can just ask obviously, but um or having processes in place For for that, if that makes sense.
Nailah King 25:05
So typically, I wrote about this in my blogs regarding inclusive language as well. Generally person first is how we write. But as you pointed out, there's a lot of cases where I get to see first is being reclaimed is being reimagined is deep, powerful, why the people using them? I think in this case, it's best to kind of, assuming you have a personal relationship with them, of course, to let them guide and inform you of terms that they like to use. I think that's always important to really put the focus on in terms of dietitian specific stuff, it could potentially be a scenario wherein I don't know if it's on a form, or in some way, when you begin to work with them to say, you know, what's the term that you'd like me to use? We want stay away from like, prefer, and all that stuff. But yeah, assuming that you have a relationship with them, I think it's possibly good to just ask IN an instance, where you don't have a relationship with someone I think, you know, the general acceptance is person first. But also to think about if you need that qualifying label, that's another question to kind of ask yourself or be in dialogue with yourself about that. And, yeah, I think conversations where that is obviously relevant, then yeah, just, you know, going with kind of a more community accepted terms. I know that, that is sort of liberatory for folks, so you can lean on that. And if someone you know, has a different term they'd like to use then apologize on the harm that may have caused and use the accepted term. Those are kind of the things that kind of help me. But in general, I tend to not really rely on kind of any labels unless that label is like, particularly an affirmation or empowering for them, just can cause them to kind of like lead that conversation.
Laura Jean 27:45
I think that that's a really, really big piece there that you just mentioned in there, which just really stuck out. Is that is that questioning or asking why we need sometimes why we need a term or why we why we're wanting to use a term or why we wanting to even Yeah, like, you know, group, you know, for an individual having why we need that, like said, like that label, and even for, you know, when we're talking about terms to for groups of people, sometimes why we're trying to push people into it, you know, into a group and rather than looking at that individual human as well. Yeah, that that, that I think that you really brought that. That's a really important piece to kind of keep in mind is why. like, do we really need to get to use those terms? Or to find a term like, Yeah, what's the what's the intent behind that? Or what's the purpose of even even kind of quantifying that? or yeah, qualifying that.
Nailah King 28:40
That's kind of a general conversation around gender as well. Is that like, is that context critical for meeting? I think that's a question for, for folks to kind of think about, which is not to say we should shy away from terms or accept the terms or not engaged in this dialogue. But I think that's potentially like a great starting question to kind of think about, you know, when you're trying to talk about someone or talk to someone, what are the terms that actually I should backdrop is, you know, categorizing them in any particular way, like helpful critical, would be kind of the first question. Second question would be, if you have a relationship with them, you know, just asking them point blank to say, hey, I want to make sure that I'm using the right language. I don't want this to be harmful. Can you let me know what terms are appropriate in this context? If you don't have if you don't have that context of that relationship, potentially could say something like, I know typically, love to use the word typical. We tend towards more person first language is that something that's aligned with you and potentially their opportunity to say I like XYZ.
Laura Jean 30:02
Yeah. I think that it's having that conversation. And I think that if we come back to that piece that you've said, which is, it's okay, that we don't have to be perfect, because I think that is possibly what, what can hold people back. And I know, for dietitians, we do tend to want to be perfect. But um, you know, do the right thing and be good, quote unquote. So I think that it's that reminder, having those conversations, but with that remind us that, yeah, we're all learning still. And that, that people themselves can be changing the language they like to use about themselves, of course, as well as they, as they grow and change. So I think it's just that reminder to, which is something that I'm often talking about is, you know, it's human first, it's considering that it's just this, there's a human in front of you, and, and how do you want to signal to them that this is a space where they can be, where they can show up where they can be seen and heard. And it's by opening up that, those questions for them and for ourselves. I love me a few questions. So but yeah, but opening up that conversation with, with the humans we're working with, and letting them and it comes back to to, again, something I'm always banging on about, about them being the expert, them being the expert in their bodies, then being the expert in how sessions run. And and actually, you know, it's another step further in the direction beyond lip service of just Human Centered Care it brings us into that space of actually, this is really human centered, really human directed for this human that's right here in front of me, and how can I create that space where they really are the expert, and it is really about them.
Nailah King 31:37
Yeah, and that's partly why I shy away from kind of any prescriptive advice. You know, we're all humans with an individual experience. And when it comes to terms that people are more comfortable with, it's really about that individual at the end of the day, that's their lived experience, they have a PhD in themselves, if you will, they know what language affirms them, lights them up is makes them feel seen and as though they belong. So I don't necessarily feel comfortable, like personally by us, or I can doesn't feel comfortable labeling people in that way. I try to you know, if you're, if you're being sort of hard and fast, you can certainly check people's public social media to see what terms they use, if you want to just check in with them before to say, Hey, I noticed you use XYZ, let me know if that's something that's aligned with you in our conversations. I mean, I still think do the work of trying to find out what works for them. But I don't necessarily think in many cases, of course, not all. I'm leaving to kind of certain things out of this. But But you know, certain terms, I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing in the world to say I've done the kind of the legwork of checking out your BIOS and everything. And I just want to make sure that we're aligned, because the last thing I want to do is say something harmful, I think people largely would be receptive to that even even at the beginning of this, you asked me the pronunciation of my name, because to remember my BIOS about that, that's something that I'm going to change. That's a great opportunity to ask somebody, if you have that relationship to, you can't randomly be in people's comment boxes, or in their DMS or emails, asking all sorts of questions. But I think if you're starting to foster a relationship with the client or someone, then that's potentially the opportunity to say, hey, I've looked through your BIOS, I'm thinking that this is the language you use, but I just want to double check. So I'm not causing you any harm, because that's the last thing I want to do.
Laura Jean 33:56
Yeah, and most dietitians I know are committed to doing less harm. And I think that yeah it brings you back to that. You know, that original were talking before when you sort of said like that first question, before we ask the question and engage somebody in conversation is why do we, you know, why do we need to know this? And I think if we can, if we run it through that filter first, or why we need this, or do we need this, then that's a good way to then check if if that next step question, opening up that conversation is is even required in some situations, and I really appreciated those, you know, you really gave some really great wording there, you know, before about how we can ask that conversation, you know, how we can how we can phrase it and how we can place it, and how we can give ourselves grace or compassion that yeah, that we're all learning and that and that we will make mistakes, but that's pretty normal. And because language is changing, and how people and people's own relationship with themselves and the language they use is changing that when there is going to change and we are going to make mistakes and that that's actually just going to be part of it. We might even be working with a client who, you know, at one stage is comfortable with certain terms. And then as they're changing, they're growing they or they might not even know. But as they do change and grow, then they can, you know, be, you know, if you've created that space of inclusion, then hopefully they'll feel comfortable or confident to then communicate back to you when there is a change. Within within language when we're talking about
Nailah King 35:24
if you have like a recurring recurring client base. Like if you're working with someone, like in a retainer or something, potentially at the six month mark, or however you've done, delineated it, that's potentially a good time to say, I just want to make sure you know that this information is still correct. We're still reflective of your experience. Because it's true. we're evolving all the time. Opinions I had six months ago are not necessarily opinions I have now. some of those I speak about publicly, some of those I don't, I just kind of try to infuse it in the work that I'm doing now. I think it's really just being intentional about what you're saying, what you're writing how you're communicating with folks. But I think, I think that's the challenge with the solo printer business in general, right, part of a free lead magnet that they push is have these checklists. So I think people are conditioned to be like, but I downloaded the checklist and I checked off all the things on the checklist. I'm good now, right? Looks like no, like, there's too many people who've come back to me, not in the scope of my solopreneur work to say, 'but I did the things'. And it's like, well, the things you did five years ago are not necessarily the things that are relevant now. And that's also where ethics page can come in to you. I know some people find those to be performative. But I think so long as your ethics page includes the tangible actions that you're taking, with timelines. I think that's another way to engage your community to say, you know, these are my inclusive language goals. This is the progress so far, you know, interject with Oh, I've taken a course or I've taken a webinar that's kind of changed my perspective, here's how I'm working through that being transparent about what you're looking on, and what you've achieved. That's more of a kind of checklist moment to say, here's the act, tangible actions I'm gonna take. This is me, surfacing them, this is how I'm working through that list. And slowly as you update things, you can remove it or just say it's been completed. Just keep that transparency piece. In conversation, even to say, like something I need to do that I haven't been doing previously, is adding an option to add your pronouns. I typically give mine and then that typically fosters that exchange, but folks just want to have that off the bat, I want to make sure I have that option for them. So yeah, I think just constantly being in dialogue, certainly with yourself. And if it's something that you feel comfortable being transparent about on your web page, I certainly think that there, that's a good thing to do to to let your community know that you're actively working on something, I think, potentially more than showing up imperfectly people are also potentially afraid of being performative. Which is something I also kind of want to address, I kind of feel like we're getting there anyway. You know, performativity happens when people talk a big game, you know, when everyone was listening and learning, and not changing anything about their business. I think if you're going to make statements, they have to be backed with tangible actions. And they also don't have to necessarily be sweeping either, you know, like, they could just be something like, you know, I've noticed my websites and accessible, I'm going to take Erin Perkins' course, for example, or I'm going to install this plug in and start fixing things like it doesn't have to necessarily be this like door stopping immediate action, it can be just the announcement of like, okay, I've noticed that there's a thing, here's the steps that are involved. This is my plan. I will keep y'all notified.
I think that's where you can kind of address the performance to be piece because chances are, we're working against heuristics and things that are being put on us from when we're very small. While it's lovely, and I appreciate when I'm called in or when I have an opportunity to change things. It didn't take me you know, redacted number of years to work, the things that I've learned that are harmful, so it's not going to take two minutes to learn them. Like Yes, there are some quick fixes. Adding your pronouns making sure to actively advocate for pronoun use, things like that those are easy. but changing your mindset around You know, how you write about identity is not going to change overnight? we're conditioned to talk about things in binaries, you're not going to be able to just do that. So yeah, I think there's a distinction. And I tried to do this in my audits to go between like, quick wins. And just like that long term action, and a quick win would be, you know, adding alt text, but your long term plan would be making sure that you are knowledgeable about the web experience of screen reader user. So that you can continue to create your content with that in mind. That's hope that example makes sense.
Laura Jean 40:41
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah. And if anyone you know, not sure ALT text is, is if you just want to explain that Nailah, just in case anyone's not on top of that one.
Nailah King 40:52
So alt text is just an alternative text for an image. So if there's an image of me, the alternative text would be NAilah Kinga So if someone's using a screen reader, they know that it's an image of meaning. And if on the sort of all user side, if an image breaks, you still have that context left. Lots of IG influencers, may only really tend to cite the SEO benefits, I can't ignore that there is not an SEO benefit. So yes, you will, depending on what the image is, and how it's or the alt text is and how it's written. And there can be SEO payoffs, but that's not really what it's for. So I want to just dispel that, because there's a lot of that.
Laura Jean 41:37
The first time I even user heard about alt text was Yeah, in a in a course many years ago, where somebody was basically saying, make sure you put your text into to maximize SEO, and I was like, oh, okay, you know, and it's myself, in my own process of learning and unlearning of learning that, Oh, actually, no, that's for a purpose. And this is, yeah, and it's just, it's recognizing that and giving yourself compassion that you knew what, you did what you take action based on what you know, in any one time, and there's always that opportunity to learn and change, and actually change the action that goes along with it. And I know myself, that's an area, there's lots of actions around inclusion that I'm working on and trying to get better, but at the same time, giving my self compassion that I'm one person, like, is that a solopreneur? Doing this stuff. And so it takes time. And, and while that's not an excuse to to not take action, and that it's just yeah, give I think giving ourselves compassion that, that we need to, we want to, we want to put things in place, we want to do things we want to change, but we want it to be something that's sustainable, something that is actually worthwhile, that we're doing it for the reasons that aren't reactionary, necessarily, but yeah, that we can, and that we can sustain, like, you know, we can actually make those changes and bake them into our business versus them being just, yeah, kind of Yep. reactionary, as such. So I really love Yes, a lot of what you what you've talked about. And of course, I love the stuff that you put out, which is why we've connected, because I love following along. And you're always offering really, really just opportunities to just get curious to pause and think about that, that and thank you for offering those here in our chat today. Particularly those questions, I think around Yeah, what's our what why are we? What are our goals around inclusion? I think that's something really important for us to think about. And then what are the actions that go along with that? Would you feel comfortable? Maybe giving? Maybe not necessarily any checklist kind of items? But maybe it could they could be questions, or could be ways for people to get curious, but maybe just some takeaways or some sort of tips for people around how they can, you know, take action and move move, things moved towards creating that space of belonging.
Nailah King 44:05
For sure, I would say that the first sort of step would be to check in with yourself,to have that sort of self dialogue to say, geopoint, to give yourself grace to tell yourself 'self, this is going to be a journey, there's going to be kind of peaks and valleys. But you know, the thing that I'm working towards is equitable spaces.' So that's kind of like a little mindset piece. I don't like using mindset because it's been so co opted and ruined and it's problematic. But I think, you know, self dialogue is really great in terms of getting yourself kind of hyped up to do the work in a safe space. And also, burnout is kind of the enemy of doing this work. So to your point earlier, how can you do this sustainably? Who Can you reach out to? Who can you potentially work with as an accountability partner Or just, you know, for some support? That's kind of like step number one,
step number two would be okay, I've decided that I'm going to do the work, what are my goals? What am I looking to achieve? The third, potentially depending on kind of where you're at in your business, would be to also potentially check in with your community, figure out what they need, how you can serve them better. Because they're the humans already using your platforms or looking at your content or working with you. So you can do this through an IG kind of poll, or you can email a survey of things that they'd like to see. And potentially, you could even ask them if they feel like the content is inclusive or represents their experiences, that might be a good place to start. And then in terms of the last piece of an inquiry, just audit your content, like, I always recommend going through your website with a screen reader, the tool NVDA screen, the accessibility widgets, site improve is free. Just run a site improve on your website, listen to some content blocks with NVDA. And just kind of think about, you know, would this make sense to an assisted tech user that's like, largely how my blogs are even edited? Because I create an audio blog. And sometimes I'll hear a sentence and I'm like, look like that doesn't. That doesn't work. It needs to be clearer. So yeah, auditing your content, reading through the blogs reading through your copy to make sure that you know, is it aligned? Does it make sense? Does it sound good on NVDA? For example, is it shame free? And this one is a little bit of a less sexy tip. But I think having the experience of myself being quite negative on a sales page with a product that I did invest in was not a great investment was - does, do they have all the information they need to comfortably make a decision? Sometimes urgency isn't, you know, a countdown clock. Sometimes urgency is I don't feel as though I have an alternative. So I have to invest even though all my questions haven't been answered. And maybe I don't feel comfortable reaching out to the service provider or course provider, or I've searched, you know, the seven C's and I can't find the information that I need. But I don't want to miss out on this deal. So I'm just going to hope it all works out. I think that's another piece of belonging is empowering folks to have all the information to make a decision and I say a decision meaning maybe not working with you in this capacity is the decision, I think VP Wright, who's a business coach that I really admired. They talka a lot about accessible pricing. And you know, kind of that ladder approach maybe you know, your top level ladder is not the appropriate offer. But it's okay - I know that's sort of counter to kind of marketing - but potentially it's okay to say at the end of the sales page, looking for something else? explore other options', like potentially that's something even though it is kind of counter to the rules,
Laura Jean 48:28
of course, people feel more comfortable. You can even have your bar up that will supposedly you know, your your search bar at the top because people have to, you know, they can't make any choice except clicking the button to buy on your sales page. Yes, I'm sure we could talk for a whole nother hour about manipulative sales tactics, that we see all that we've even used ourselves because we're all learning, we're all we're all changing. But I think I think that's a great I love that idea. Because I think it's a win win for everyone. If if somebody is not interested in that offer, then there might be something else, another way of working with you that works for them better, and they still get and I know that for most of the dietitians that listening or listening here is our for most of us our desire is really just to help people to create spaces where people can find what they need. And so I think that that will probably resonate with a lot of people because for a lot of people it's like as long as the humans that they want to work with in the communities that they serve have solutions and have support that's that's the at the end of the day that's the that's the goal. Yeah, like that's what we what we're working towards not necessarily selling the high ticket priced item even though apparently like you said that's sort of what we're supposed to be working towards. If we're to believe the higher Thanks. No,
Nailah King 49:47
yeah, and a lot of sales pages. Oh, I just was gonna end off with a lot of sales pages are kind of in the positioning of like, Don't be a so and so. So that's like the sense of urgency to be like, I don't want to be so and so like so and so sounds terrible. Like you've built this case for them to not be so and so, but get to the pricing piece. And then there's like that Panic of like, this is a line, but not necessarily with my price point. So I think showing them that you're in community with them and various different price points in different ways is potentially another way to use language copy content to make people feel as though they belong.
Laura Jean 50:22
Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think you're right, if there's just all those ways that we can do that we can create that sense of belonging. And that where we can use our values to really guide guide us away from maybe some of that more traditional kind of sales, marketing stuff that for a lot of lot of people, it just, it feels icky, it feels yuck. And there's a reason to that, I think, because it doesn't, we know, probably because it triggers those same feelings in us of, of all of those kind of those actions, that urgency that that trying to act in a way that's not in align with our values. So I appreciate you bringing that up and, and linking it into the inclusion piece, because like you said, inclusion, you know, and it is bigger than just not saying the wrong words. It's creating a sense of belonging from the very, you know, from from the pronouns, we use, right to that whole experience on a sales page where people can have a feeling that if this, that there is something here for them, if they need it, you know, if what you're saying if how you work aligns, that there is something here for them. And I really like, Yeah, kind of come full circle with that, which I think some really good, because I think it really is the key, like you said to moving now our thoughts about how we use inclusion beyond just lip service beyond just, you know, the basic stuff, which is important, but how we take it, take it take it further, and how we actually really make it part of our almost default, because we're always coming back to that idea of well, is this creating a sense of belonging? Not just am I, you know, am I saying the right thing? And it's a such more powerful kind of question that we can ask ourselves more powerful way that we can be in that inquiry in that self dialogue, which I really love that term you use there, too, might steal that. We do credit, of course, that Yeah, we can we can use those those ways of getting curious and bringing that into our business. So thank you so much for that Nailah. If people were wanting to look further at your work, and potentially look at, you know, some of the tools that you have, because I know you have some great ones, and I'll get you we'll add some links in the show notes for people to have a look at some of the stuff you've got, because I think it's would be really helpful for people who want to go a bit deeper with inclusion. You know, having inclusion, taking those action steps. Where can people get more information, where's the best place to reach out and connect with you?
Nailah King 52:52
Definitely, because I'm still revamping the website, she said for like six weeks. definitely get in touch with me on Instagram. My handle is at Nailah dot z dot k, that'll be linked in the show notes. Send me a quick dm, there's lots of great content on Instagram as well if you are not yet able to invest. For now, the inclusive language cheat sheet, which has a few more tips that were mentioned here is free to download. The FYI there is that piece is going away. Something else is coming still free. Stay tuned.
Laura Jean 53:30
Excellent. Well, thank you for your time, I really appreciate you. And I appreciate the work that you put out in the world. We need more people like you and we need you know, what's all of us working together to create these spaces of belonging.
Nailah King 53:45
Yeah, I'm community made, I don't think I would be where I'm at in terms of my inclusion and still continuing and striving to do better without my community. So I really appreciate this opportunity to talk to your community and share and yeah, I can't wait to Well, one, listen to this and to just see being in conversation with folks about what they're working on and how they're striving to change their business. Excellent.
Laura Jean 54:11
Well, thanks. And thanks for tuning in today. And if you've got questions, absolutely, and you want to connect, absolutely, I would recommend going along and following over on Instagram and we'll pop all that in the show notes and some of the tools and people that we've talked about, we'll make sure that the links are in the show notes so that you can come back and use this as a resource. Okay, well, we'll sign off now and I look forward to chatting to you next time. Bye for now.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai