If you're a human working with humans, you're working with trauma.

So, how do you do that while doing less harm? And how do you do it across all areas of your business?

Today I'm chatting to Katie Kurtz to discuss just that. Katie is a licensed social worker, coach and trauma specialist. Katie's work is redefining what it means to hold space through a trauma informed lens and building capacity for any and all space holders to be trauma informed.

Let's dive in.

Links, resources & mentions

Katie-kurtz.com

Katie on Instagram

Andrea Ranae Johnson

Episode Transcript

Laura Jean 0:03

Today, I'm really looking forward to being in conversation with our guest and bringing that conversation to you. So today, I'm chatting to Katie Kurtz. And Katie is a social worker and trauma specialist. Her work centres around trauma informed trainings, coaching and mentorship. And Katie does a lot of work holding space for others who hold space, and redefining what that means through a trauma informed lens. So Katie, I'm really kind of feel really honoured that you're here to be in conversation. Thanks for coming.

Katie Kurtz 1:12

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really honoured to be here and have this conversation.

Laura Jean 1:17

Great. So let's kick off. I mean, obviously, that's a little blurb around your work. But I'd really like to hear, I'd love to sort of hear about your story there. Like how you describe your work and what brought you to where you are or where you find yourself.

Katie Kurtz 1:35

Absolutely. So I I'm a licenced social worker, and I've been practising for the last 12 years as a social worker specifically, specialising in the intersection of trauma and resilience. So I, I live in the United States, and I know Social Work, counselling, coaching comes in different forms, depending on where you where you are in the world, where I live, it's a highly regulated field. And so that's what my area of focus over the last 12 years has been. It started off as direct care. So working with individuals and families who experienced complex trauma, so offering trauma therapy, and my career has moved in many directions. I ended up finding my niche kind of in training and education and around trauma informed care. And about six years ago, I completed my certification as a life a life coach with the beautiful you Coaching Academy, and was able to really utilise coaching, creating my own coaching practice, which was very connection centred, using a trauma informed space holding methods for other people, and also utilising my coaching skills to enhance the work I was doing in social work. And about a year and a half ago, thank you, global pandemic, I really was, I really felt called to create a little more freedom with my two worlds. I kind of had one foot in my social work world and one foot in coaching. And I really wanted to blend the two to find more freedom in my own creative expression. And so I continue to lead trauma informed leadership training with a nationally kind of renowned Trauma Recovery centre and a healthcare system here. I live in Cleveland, Ohio, in the US. And I also have my own coaching business, where I lead trauma informed trainings, workshops, mentorship, and consulting specifically with professional space holders. So folks who may not be familiar with trauma informed care, they're starting to hear more about it. And being a qualified trainer offering that so a lot of coaches of all kinds, wellness professionals, entrepreneurs, creatives.

Laura Jean 4:10

Excellent and something that as people build more awareness around like you say people are starting to build more awareness, that work and that support is so helpful. And so important. And with your mix of skills as well, having the social worker role where you work directly with people who've experienced trauma, and then bridging over into the coaching role, where for most coaches, it's more that trauma informed type approach. Could you speak to, and I know I've really gained a lot of clarity around this from following your work, around that kind of the differences in nuances between that kind of spectrum from, you know, trauma awareness right up to actually, you know, supporting folks who have experienced trauma?

Katie Kurtz 5:01

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I think a few things to just help kind of create some shared understanding. First and foremost is, again, roles like social workers, counsellors, and therapists take different meaning depending on where you land in the world. Some, countries are more regulated than others, or require certain amounts of training and ethics, etc. But it's important to note, too, that not all social workers, counsellors, and therapists are trauma trained, or even trauma informed. And just because I am a social worker, and did a lot of my beginning in my career in direct response of care, trauma care, I don't function in that role I, I consult on occasion, in, in in some circumstances, but my role is specifically as a trainer and educator. So with that being said, my role as a trainer and consultant, and guide is focused on helping people better understand trauma competencies. And so there are four types of trauma competencies. The one we're probably most familiar with is the term trauma informed care. The reason why we're familiar with that is, in the 1970s, when a lot of veterans were returning from Vietnam, the Vietnam War to the United States, they were coming back having experienced significant trauma, and it was manifesting into post traumatic stress disorder or PTSD. And so a lot of research and a lot of mental health and social service care was wrapped around those folks. And this practice or approach called trauma informed care was developed and it has evolved over many decades. And, again, I can only speak from my lens in the United States, but it is now a model that is rooted in health, human and social services. It's an evidence informed practice. And it's typically the competency level we're most likely to have heard of, if you are somebody in wellness or health, we typically see that more common in social services, but we're starting to see it more in healthcare, and then again, you know, we're seeing it more in other fields as well. So what's important to create some distinction around is that knowing that trauma exists, doesn't mean you're trauma informed, it means you're trauma aware. So that's where we kind of start with competency. Trauma awareness means that I hold an understanding and I hold some knowledge of what trauma is, I understand, you know, trauma, kind of the basic understanding of it, I understand some of its impact. It's ubiquitous or pervasive nature. However, being trauma aware doesn't really include anything much further than that knowledge. It doesn't include any training or skill development to integrate that or apply that knowledge into practice. Most people are, are generally trauma aware, right? We collectively have some knowledge around or have heard of things like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or, trauma because of the media or read a book or an article. So I wouldn't say everyone but I would say a lot of folks are trauma aware. The next level of competency is trauma sensitivity. I personally teach this as trauma mindfulness. But this next level is okay, I'm aware of what trauma is I have this trauma awareness. But then I have a little bit of additional maybe skill development or training and how to integrate that knowledge into ensuring I'm sensitive to and mindful of the lived experiences of others. Now, this may not be a formal training, it could just be that you maybe you read a book or you went attended a workshop or you've done some personal practice around expanding that view or lens. However, if you have this expanded viewpoint of compassion and empathy to understand people have these lived experiences of trauma it doesn't necessarily mean though you've gone through some sort of guided training or skill development for active application. The next level of competency is that trauma informed competency level so this means I have that trauma awareness,I'm trauma sensitive, and I've gone through some sort of training with a qualified trainer on how to actively apply these practices to honour people's lived experiences and humanity, which includes trauma and to resist harm. Now this is where we want most people to be, this is ideal. This is where, especially if you're a professional space holder of any kind, it would be very ideal to be in this place going through some sort of training, knowing this isn't arrival but an evolution. What's really key about this, understanding this level of competency though is this does not mean that you have the ability or the qualification to respond to other people's trauma or address it in any way. It also doesn't necessarily mean that you have the ability now to train other people because there's a lot of depth and nuance to being trauma informed in that level of competency. And then finally, the last level of competency is trauma responsive. So these are our social workers, our therapists or somatic practitioners, or healers, those people who have had considerable experience formal training, specialising on supporting others in their own healing, recovery or resolution of trauma. So this again, these are people who have had ongoing learning, ongoing training, mentorship apprenticeship, who are the people who are devoted to holding space for others to heal their trauma and address it. So I like to create a lot of clarity around these competency levels, because it's there really isn't a lot of discussion to decipher the differences between the different levels. And why I emphasise, especially I emphasise it in all the trainings I do, but I especially emphasise it in unregulated fields like wellness, business and coaching, is because sometimes people may misinterpret and think they're trauma informed and then think that means that they can then dig or address or talk about people's trauma, and that's not the case. And it could create a pathway for harm, or retraumatization for other people. So I like to create a lot of clarity with these competencies. And I appreciate this question because it helps kind of decipher where people land and de-mystify what these terms mean to help us create some shared language and understanding.

Laura Jean 12:32

Thank you, that's super helpful. And I think for the dietitians and other you know, health and healing, helping professionals listening. From my conversations with most dietitians, I feel like the hesitancy comes in the other way of dietitians not feeling competent, feeling like that's really outside of our scope of practice. And particularly feeling quite hesitant around harm, particularly. And to do things around that. I think, for most dietitians or for a lot of dietitians that I support in my work are working in what's called like, you know, non diet space. So working with people with a lot of disordered eating habits, with eating disorders, and very much a generalisation, but usually some element of trauma. I mean, you know, so, I think for most dietitians, they can be hesitant, but it'd be great. I don't know if you'd be happy to talk around that or how for clinicians, particularly practitioners, clinicians to kind of find their space there. And if they're wanting tommove between those those kind of spaces, or from trauma aware to trauma mindful or from trauma mindful to trauma informed, just feeling more confident in where they're at and their skills. Yeah, around that sort of scope of practice piece. Is that, that be something you'd be happy to address.

Katie Kurtz 14:08

Absolutely. So again I always, because everything we talk about related to our humanity, and trauma is so nuanced, I always like to create some shared language and understanding. So when we say scope of practice, we're describing what our set of skills, services, responses, all of those things that are kind of within our personal competency and boundary as a professional and so for clinicians, practitioners, dietitians again, full transparency cannot speak to the specific scope of practice of dietitians, especially folks in different countries, but I do know that most folks who have gone through higher education and specialisation in a certain field have a more set or regulated scope of practice that is sort of governed or overseen by some sort of governing body, whether that's a licensure board, either like a national or state based or territory based governing board or stakeholders board, where they're sort of established guidelines, best practices, ethics, etc. And then there's unregulated fields. So coaching is probably our most accessible and tangible example, is that the coaching industry is an unregulated field, meaning there is no governing body. There are some best practices, we have the international coaching Federation or ICF, that definitely has done a lot of work to support the coaching industry, but it's, you know, you could wake up tomorrow, say you're a coach, and there's no one saying you can't do that, right? And there's no set forth, kind of expectation for training, ongoing training, supervision, etc. So what's really important with this question you have, which I love, I love talking about scope of practice, because it's so key in being a trauma informed leader, but I often come with a lot more questions than I do answers. So a lot of my questions when it comes to the scope of practice, for anyone listening to this, who may feel hesitancy who may feel concerned or just needing more clarity, the few questions I would really focus on is, first, what is your scope of practice? Have you clearly outlined what's within your scope? And what's outside of it, creating that distinction is super important, not just for you, as the space holder or practitioner, etc, but also so that you can be sure you're clearly communicating it with your clients, your patients, your stakeholders. And then the next question I would really encourage people to do is exploring and getting curious about what the best practices and guidelines are within your industry, whether it's regulated or not, being familiar and up to date, with what the best practices are, evidence informed practices, whatever that may be, within your scope of practice. And then from there starting to be, again, I always say opt for curiosity over judgement, starting to explore okay with my scope of practice what has been my training? You know, okay, I've had formal education great. have I committed to continuing and ongoing learning so that I'm up to date, that I'm continuously staying engaged in my continuing education efforts? And on the flip side of that training, are these trainings from reputable sources are the people I'm learning from, are they practising within their scope? Have they communicated that with me? Are they qualified? And from there, I also would encourage people to explore, you know, what's your accountability plan? How are you staying accountable, to ensure you are continuing to function in your scope of practice? Again, staying in that lane? And what happens if you find yourself teetering on the edge or even going outside of that? How are you resourcing yourself, do you have mentorship? Do you have supervision? Do you have peer support and community and what's really important here when it comes to resisting, reducing and repairing harm, is that we want to be sure we're looking at harm prevention or reduction upfront. And one way to do that is very clearly communicating your scope of practice to your clients and communities you serve, and not just kind of a one and done but how are you communicating that verbally? are you communicating that through any type of content on website social media? How are you communicating that through group or space agreements and also through contracts so that it's repetitive, it's very clear and so the people you're working with understand your role and expectations. and you tighten those potential pathways for harm to occur. And one form of harm being intentional or unintentional, usually unintentional kind of going out of that scope of practice.

Laura Jean 19:25

Yeah, that's really helpful. I think that kind of process aspect of it. Yeah. Because I think sometimes I don't know if this is similar in Social Work fields, but definitely for dietitians, we are often looking for that black and white answer. Yep. Okay. This is how I know, this is how I don't know, but I think - and you know, we're very comfortable with questions around here, everyone's used to me asking lots of questions. I think that's helpful around really articulating the scope of practice and so importantly, communicating that really strongly and like you said, repetitively and through that lens of resisting harm or reducing harm. And starting from there and something I'm often talking about is, sometimes the first place to start with that acting with less harm is to accept that we will do harm that having those things in place that you know the cycle of maybe going back into our scope of practice, if we have done harm, and how we can readjust that to reflect more clearly where it is. And also, of course, supervision and spaces where we can hash stuff out where we can get support, where we can get another person's support to get that questioning and analysis going and build that into our frameworks. Yeah, that's really, really helpful. Yeah,

Katie Kurtz 20:37

absolutely. And that's a big part of the work I do, too, is really, I think, especially for folks who are just either starting to become trauma aware that there is this almost like gripping in their bodies and kind of in their nervous systems of like, oh, gosh, I don't want to cause harm. And there's some fear around causing harm. And, you know, and how human of us, first of all, our human brains really love either or thinking we love clarity, we want that contrast of you know, black, white, either or good bad, because it helps us figure out how to navigate the world around us. However, when it comes to things like our humanity, and trauma and adversity, it's very nuanced. And it's very much the and/both. And therefore, it can be really uncomfortable, we can often be left with a lot of things unanswered. And it causes us to really have to practice discernment, which is it's definitely a muscle, we have to practice flexing. And one of the things I always like to demystify is that, and I'll quote one of my teachers, Andrea Ranae Johnson, is that, you know, to harm is to be human. And so okay, let's drive the elephant into the middle of the room and say, yes, we are human, therefore, we're going to cause harm, we can't avoid it. We can't perfect our way out of it. And we can't lead our way with fear around it, we have to just accept that it's going to happen. Now what are we going to do about that? And I think one of the biggest things around being trauma informed and the way I teach trauma informed leadership and trauma informed space holding is really equipping people with the knowledge, skills and tools to reduce, resist or repair harm, and to integrate and apply things into their practices. So it really again, closes those potential gaps, and pathways for harm to occur. And really naming harm, like, let's talk about it, let's name it, I offer a lot of personal context and examples to help folks better understand it. As somebody who's done this work for a long time, I've absolutely caused harm, I continue to, what matters though, is being able to recognise it be open to course correction, leaning on learning, leaning on mentors and peers to help me process and kind of grow from that, and then taking accountability and self responsibility to ensure I don't cause it again. And when we think about our scope of practice, one of the big things I think, that causes or drives fear is that when we are met with a situation or a client, I'll use the example of maybe a dietitian working with a client who has disordered eating, but it's directly related to trauma, that can definitely be a tricky situation to navigate. And I think that's where discernment, mentorship and peer support is so important for that dietitian, who's kind of teetering on that edge is also recognising too, that it is not a personal flaw or failing if we're unable to offer a service or respond to someone because it's outside of our scope of practice, right? We're actually doing a great service to our people and our clients, when we are really enacting those boundaries within our scope, and then having that ability, and that kind of checking of our ego to refer out and having a you know, equipping ourselves with those lists of referrals or encouraging those clients and just naming 'You know, I'm noticing you're bringing up a lot here regarding some of your trauma processing and resolution. I want to be sure you're you're working with a qualified counsellor and trauma therapist. I think if you're not I think that might be a really supportive thing to explore.' And having those conversations but making sure you're really clear with yourself and others regarding that scope of practice.

Laura Jean 24:57

Yeah, absolutely. And I think most like I said before, probably on that more hesitant side and that importance of referring out and the collaboration piece, but I think the piece probably that is newer in our, particularly in Australia, I know is around the supervision and I think that normalising that is a really key part of that whole cycle of what you were saying before. I liked that idea of reduce resist repair, you know, it kind of feeds back into itself and creates a space where we can move through some steps and we can move ourselves through. so it's not just, do no harm, which can keep us stuck, but okay, we reduce the harm as much as we can resist the harm by having that really nice clear scope, having supervision, etc. And then when harm does occur, because it will, then we repair, and then the learnings from that can come back into our reducing piece so we can go Okay, well, is my scope tight? Am I communicating that well? Have I got that supervision in place? Have I got all those pieces there to reduce harm? Yeah, so I really like that way of thinking about it, versus just that whole idea of do no harm and like, Okay, then what?

Katie Kurtz 26:11

Right, like, Okay, and then, you know, if we're leading or holding space for people with that fear it's going to create, it's actually just going to create more harm, because it's going to create a barrier between our ability to hold space to build trust with other people. So the more we humanise harm the better. we don't want to normalise it in a way that, you know, lacks accountability by any means, right? When I say, you know, we're going to cause harm, now what? it doesn't mean let it happen, it's just a part of life, like, No, we have to take active accountability and responsibility for the harm. And there's a lot of different types of harm. And most of it again, is with a lot of good intention, but it's when, for a lot of harm, when our intentions and our impact are unaligned so what are we doing as professional space holders to really ensure, and this is where that resisting piece comes in, to align our intentions and impact. And that's why having a trauma informed lens is actually super supportive to the space holder and not just who they hold space for, but themselves, because you're feeling equipped with these different skills and tools to actively integrate and apply and practice that kind of beautiful cycle you described there of reduce, resist repair. And that, and having that ability to seek out those mentors, those supervisors, those peers, that community, you know, I'm a big believer, we can't hold space for other people unless we're able to hold space for ourselves. And as space holders of all kinds, especially dietitians, wellness professionals, we need those people to hold space for us too because above all else for human first, helper second.

Laura Jean 28:06

Absolutely. And, yeah, I think that building that connection, building that community is such an integral piece, particularly I find for dietitians who are in the entrepreneurial space. So we often get trained in our practice, in multidisciplinary teams or in a team of maybe more than one dietitian, where there is sometimes traditionally or historically built in to spaces that space holding within like a team or crew, depending on obviously the culture. But when you're out there working by yourself, that's not always there. So it is really that conscious decision and actually taking those active steps to build those relationships around that. So yeah, that's really, really important. I would probably guess, or generalise that most dietitians or a lot of the dietitians from the non diet spaces as a whole would be somewhere between that trauma mindful sensitive and potentially wanting to move into the trauma informed space, or perhaps they're sort of on that toehold of the trauma informed space and wanting to just continue to maintain their skills and their confidence and competency. What are some of the practical steps or even just questions or awareness building that you would encourage people to do to kind of to move in through that. So to go from being trauma mindful and sensitive into trauma informed and for people who are sort of starting out in the baby sort of steps of being trauma informed to like continue to build their competence and confidence.

Katie Kurtz 29:39

Yeah, so I think there are there's a few things folks can do. Again, I'm going to come at this with more questions to consider. And I think what's important here to remember is if we identify and self identify as being trauma informed or leading something that is trauma informed, that's like a signal that's like we're waving a flag saying, Hey, everyone I have taken, I have taken considerate time, effort and energy to actively apply a trauma informed lens to what I do. And that means that if I'm looking around and I see that kind of flag waving or that light being shined, I'm like, oh, there's a person that I feel like I may be able to build trust with or feel brave enough to show my humanity with or someone that I know it's a signal to others that they know. You know, that person is ethical, and humanity affirming. Which is really wonderful, we want that, right? Because we know what's possible when we can show up in our full humanity and be brave, etc. However, if we aren't actually qualified trauma informed trained and have that integration and application, we may be signalling to others the wrong thing or virtue signalling, if you will, and that could be misinterpreted. So some things to consider if you feel like maybe you are, you've had some experience, maybe you've read some things, you've been to workshops, or maybe you've had some trauma informed trainings, you want to continue that, which is awesome, because I always say you can't say your trauma informed you have to be it. And it's something where we can't just do a one and done workshop, right? Like, you can take a class a yoga class, an art class and you're not going to nail it in 45 minutes, right? You want to continue to practice just like any other skill. So some questions I would pose for folks who are resonating with this piece of this conversation is the first one being have I completed any type of comprehensive trauma informed training with a qualified educator or trainer? When I say qualified, you want to be sure you're learning from somebody who has had some experience doing this work, right? And that may look differently for everyone. But I want to know, when I'm learning from somebody that who did they learn from and what kind of experience and qualifications they have to be teaching me this, because this work is so nuanced and sensitive. The next question I would have is, what kind of skills and tools beyond knowledge and that awareness piece, am I actively applying to the spaces I hold and in the work I do. how am I integrating this every day? And how am I continuing to look at and work within my scope of practice and engage in continuing education? I would also say, and I say this a lot, that we can't be trauma informed if we're not also addressing our own level of privilege, biases, and hooks into systems of racism and oppression. Being trauma informed, does not equate to being anti racist or anti oppressive, those things are meant to be done in tandem. And so I would also encourage people, and I always encourage people to be doing that kind of lifelong work in tandem with trauma informed training. So those are the big things I would look at. I do think that most people, I am thrilled to hear that you think most dietitians especially in Australia are lingering in that trauma informed space. That makes me really happy and excited because I know, as somebody I do a lot of work in health care here in the US. And I would say the majority of folks in health care are not trauma informed. I think they're mostly trauma aware. But again, trauma in healthcare usually comes with that medical or physical injury definition. And we're not actively applying that trauma informed lens into practice and integration, we're getting there, I do a lot of work with healthcare providers to to try to change that because being in any part of healthcare is very vulnerable. And we need folks to be as trauma mindful and trauma informed as possible.

Laura Jean 34:27

Yeah, definitely. I'm definitely talking mostly to the the kind of bubble or subset of dietitians that I work with, which is more in the non diet, Health at Every Size, disordered eating disorder space, I think because probably because of that work. And once you start looking at those systems around diet, culture and around Health at Every Size and those kind of principles, once they start to come into your consciousness, I think it tends to be something that gets picked up in that because the real roots of those is around centering people's humanity, lived experience etc, which is not always the casearound trauma, you know, trauma, mindfulness, but I think, from my experience and perhaps I'm generalising incorrectly, but from the dietitians in that space are kind of in that more trauma mindful space and would like to be trauma informed. I think a lot of the things that holds people back is that fear of doing harm, in that space between trauma informed and trauma responsive, which most dietitians definitely know they're not that and most within this subset of dietitians, non diet, dietitians, know they're not trauma responsive, and they're in that kind of trauma mindfulness space, but I think would like to feel more confident and competent, you know, within that holding space for humans, because it does enter the room, you know, when we're talking about eating disorders and disordered eating, when we're talking about supporting humans, you know, to trust themselves around food and their bodies, often trauma enters the space, enters that conversation.

Katie Kurtz 36:05

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that I I appreciate that clarification for me. And I think that hearing a little more about especially that non diet dietitian, that you're right, it sounds like most folks who have had a little more training around the more expanded lens of empathy around, you know, people's health in a way, maybe even looking at like social determinants of health, and people's lived experiences and histories and mental health, especially as well, that they're probably falling in that trauma sensitive trauma mindful realm. And where I would love to see more folks in the field is get to that trauma informed space. Again, because if fear is the barrier, being trauma informed, really equips you with those skills and tools that dissipates that fear. Now I can't say every trauma informed training offers that because what of course is tricky and nuanced here is the traditional trauma informed care model hasn't had a good update in a while It consists of six main concepts or pillars. And those are safety, trustworthiness and transparency, peer support, collaboration and mutuality, empowerment choice and then that cultural, historical or gender issue kind of lens. And it's a really strong evidence informed practice and approach. I teach and I appreciate the traditional trauma informed care model. The way I specifically teach it though, is expanding it into that space like you said that space holding because what I see both within trauma informed leadership and space holding is that we get the why and the what down really good but we don't focus as much on the how and I really want to equip people with those tangible practical skills and tools they can integrate and what I find with the folks I work with is once they start to get introduced to those concepts and they apply it that fear begins to lessen and that lens expands because not only now are they holding space for others through that lens they're also holding it for themselves and it becomes very reciprocal.

Laura Jean 38:37

hmm and could you speak to that a little bit more Katie or even just some more again practical tips or or your thoughts or even just those questions again because like I said, we're comfortable with questions around here. around so taking that holding space for self and part of that I imagine is things like you know, our own personal attunement and regulation as practitioners and those sorts of pieces. Would you speak to that a little bit more and maybe some either some inquiry for us as practitioners or even some tips or steps to to build out and widen our lens or our you know, tolerance in that space?

Katie Kurtz 39:13

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll speak to two different things. So I'm generally teaching folks in creating that bridge from being trauma sensitive or mindful to trauma informed and like I said, I do believe if we want to be actively trauma informed we need to go through some sort of comprehensive training so that we can actually build out that lens. If you think of like a pair of glasses, you know, we have the lens that we wear, we make sure that our prescriptions up to date those ones are clean and scratch free. That's like what we want to be doing for being trauma informed. We want to attend to it and attune to it. So I teach trauma mindfulness with within a framework called the five R's, so that's recognising trauma exists, and the pervasive nature and having that trauma awareness Foundation, regulate what you kind of touched upon. So being able to regulate our nervous systems as a space holder, so that we are coming in and creating a co regulated space. So when I say, you know, regulation, I mean, the practice of being able to tune in to our nervous system, and be able to monitor or manage and shift on our thoughts, feelings, sensations, to a place of neutrality, when we're co regulating, that means we're doing that with other people where we have one or more people through relationship and connection, when we're able to kind of find that co regulation. And what matters here is that if I'm coming into a space, even if I came into this podcast, if I were dysregulated, meaning maybe I was frustrated or anxious, or you know, had a long day or just kind of buzzy and not in a kind of regulated space, I could come in here and you even through this recording, your nervous system would mirror that. And then we start to have sort of a dysregulated space, right. But if I'm coming in grounded and anchored, it actually gives your nervous system that ability to mirror that and then we're co regulating together. And especially because we are living in a global pandemic, no matter what you believe in regards to the reality of the last two years. It is a pandemic. And pandemics historically are what we call historical trauma. It's a collective trauma that happens in our timeline of history that has both a collective and individual impact on people. And so we're living in a very unregulated time because there's so many compounded stressors with the season of life we're in. So practising regulation is so important when we hold space for ourselves and others. The third R is that realign so realigning our lens, realigning our intentions and our impact. You know, trauma disconnects us from our sense of safety, it overwhelms our nervous system, and really breaks that connection from our sense of being able to access safety, security and stability in our body and being. so as professional space holders, as trauma informed trauma mindful leaders, we have this ability to help people reconnect to that, so ensuring our spaces are brave enough and strong enough for people to enter, that we have consent and choice, that we're infusing pace, we're that we're not making things feel urgent or too much too fast, too soon. And then lastly, resist so resisting harm, what are we doing to ensure we're identifying potential pathways for harm, that we know how to resist it, and that we know how to repair it when it happens. So that is when I teach a trauma mindful workshop. So that is what I focus on in that workshop that gives people a solid foundation to lead with that mindfulness lens and apply it. trauma informed, takes it deeper, it means we're really looking at that, all of those things, but in a deeper way, we're looking at how we communicate how we set up our space, our facilitation and space holding techniques, what consent and choice even is and how do we integrate it and apply it across our practice? We're looking at personal attunement, which I believe is the core of being trauma informed, and what looking at all those different regulation and co regulation tools. And then, again, like harm reduction and leadership.

Laura Jean 44:00

That's helpful to kind of look at that, the slight nuance between those two spaces that trauma, mindfulness, and then trauma informed how that looks different. And then thinking about it within all those pieces that come together, which is which is really helpful to kind of hold that.

Katie Kurtz 44:20

Yeah, for sure. I always like to think of trauma mindful too as being like similar to general mindfulness, we're being mindful or being considerate, we're expanding our compassion and empathy. So we are maybe dabbling and applying some of those five R's, trauma informed is taking it and it's an active lens, you're applying across your practice actively all the time. So it's a much more secure, stable practice that you infuse throughout the culture of the work you do.

Laura Jean 44:54

And speaking to that, one of the things that my work is about and I'm working on and something I'm really interested in is having more conversations around, is that trauma informed piece and how we bring it out of clinic. I think a lot of the times as practitioners we can be aware of how maybe trauma mindfulness informed stuff is important when we're working one to one or when we have a group, and one of the spaces where I feel like there's maybe a gap, or an opportunity, is to bring it even further into our practices, particularly for people who have businesses who run businesses as dietitians, or are the helping professionals. Asking so, how do we create spaces that are trauma mindful or trauma informed from that very first, like you were saying before, you know, signalling to humans, we might want to work with. within our copy, within our messaging, within the ways we speak, the language we use in marketing and sales and all those sorts of pieces. And so that's an area I'm really interested in. I think you cover that a little bit in some of your work as well. What's your take around how we take it beyond just thinking of it in that kind of more narrow lens of showing up as a trauma informed practitioner versus, trauma informed or trauma mindfulness, or even trauma awareness across all of our work from that very first sighting a human has with our work to go in through those steps of working with us, or whatever it might, however, it might play out.

Katie Kurtz 46:32

Yeah, so I'm a big believer that everyone can be trauma informed. And I believe everyone deserves trauma informed care. And I think we do a great disservice. And we aren't actually being trauma informed if we're not living this out loud. Again, across and applying it to the lens through which we're living and leading out loud. So I see this a lot. And I hope we start to shift this in our culture of the work we do is that we compartmentalise trauma informed care, and we just apply it to the clients we work with, but then we don't apply it to how we treat and care for ourselves, and we don't apply it to the people on our teams or the people we work with, or our business practices, and I think it's really a lens, we can apply to everything. And we can do that. You know trauma informed sounds so clinical, and, you know, specific and it's not. this isn't that hard. The reality is, is when I teach, I have a signature programme called cultivate, and so trauma informed space holding training. And what often happens is I get a lot of different space holders in that training. And a lot of people like, Oh, I actually do this, I never realised this was trauma informed. And now they continue to do a lot of the practices they have, they just shift it under that lens. And I think that's very common. And it also affirms what you may already be doing. And it also just reminds us that we can't compartmentalise this, like once you know it, you know it. And again, I can only speak for the way I teach it, It's meant to be applied across everything. And what people find out is it ends up really not just impacting their professional work, but their personal work, their relationships. And it can really transform how you connect and relate to others and to yourself. I think what's really important to acknowledge too, and I'm sure you have seen this in your industry, even just on social media, is that a lot of people are starting to talk about trauma. A lot of people are starting to talk about trauma informed training and practices. And I, as someone who has done this work for a long time, I'm thrilled, I'm loving this right, the more we can make this mainstream, the better. I believe being trauma informed is not just for people who work in health care or mental health care or wellness, it can be applied anywhere, and I have seen it applied everywhere. But what's important to really just to create some distinction here is that trauma is not a buzzword. It's not something that's just becoming trendy. trauma and and i know you and your colleagues know it's a very real and life shifting response that individuals have and trauma informed care is not a fad or a trend. It's an evidence and research informed practice and it's been around for a while, it's just newer to coaches and business world. So I should say I don't necessarily teach a trauma informed business, workshop or training however, I do talk about that in cultivate the trauma informed space holding training I teach, we definitely go over it. Because if we're going to set up our space and invite people into this space we hold a lot of times we do that through marketing and sales and business practices. And we need to be looking at the way we communicate, and the way we sell. And we can absolutely do all of those things, through our website, copy our social media, our contracts, everything can be done through a trauma informed lens. And I work with a lot of business owners and consultant and support them in integrating a trauma informed lens across their business.

Laura Jean 50:43

Yeah, I mean, I believe that too. a real foundational part of my work is to think about how we take that, I'm not teaching anyone to be trauma informed, of course, because I'm not qualified to teach people to be trauma informed, but about how we apply those lenses. And as we start investigating and being aware of our bias and things and then how we can just keep all that stuff front of mind as we look across that stuff, our marketing our copy, etc, and, and how we show up in spaces. So that's helpful. One thing I was thinking and one thing that I really like about or one thing that's different that really stood out when I was looking at your work, and I'd love love to hear a little bit more about it is something you talk about is around trust. around that concept of don't trust me, not that you're telling people not to trust you, but I suppose it's around the idea that trust is earned. or trust is built, cultivated - I'm more interested in your language around that rather than me grappling for words - but that difference between possibly what's traditionally been underlying for health practitioners, particularly the more mainstream regulated ones, like dietitians would be part of that social work, where trust is kind of like, bestowed or traditionally that it's a given. But I really liked your take on that. So I'd love if you'd be happy to talk to that a little bit as well.

Katie Kurtz 52:14

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like every month I have some sort of communication just to remind everybody, if they're new to me, that just because I'm here I have a lot of letters after my name, or I've had a lot of experience and specialise in this work, it doesn't mean you should trust me. because I don't believe trust is assumed it's cultivated, it's built. And it takes time. And when we rush to assume trust in somebody, and the reality is sometimes we have to if we're have a medical emergency, and we have to get surgery or go to the doctor, where we're putting our trust in that person, whether we know them or not to help save us or fix us, right. However, when we're looking to work with someone, or even just follow someone on social media, we need to practice that discernment of not just assuming trust, because they have a lot of followers, or because they make a lot of money, or they have a lot of experience. But we want to create space for that relationship to build. And why I emphasise this so much from a trauma informed lens is that if we are a trauma informed leader, we want to create spaces for you to build trust with your potential clients, community, people, because when we're able to naturally and organically build trust, we're able to create space and expansion, and where there's space and expansion there's room for autonomy and self determination, and agency and consent and choice. And that creates a non hierarchical relationship. It does not assume authority. And we see this a lot in the business, especially like traditional business, world or techniques. And then it's rendition of kind of the girl boss era where all of these really manipulative tactics to sell or market or engage, especially in social media, assumed authority, or assumes kind of that know, like, trust mentality. And what can be harmful there is that we're not leaving room for discernment. And we're not leaving the room for nuance and conversation. And we are assuming authority. And when we assume authority, we create natural hierarchy which creates a power dynamic, a power over dynamic. and to be trauma informed we need to create a power dynamic that's power with, that we are with people, and that it's collaborative and co creative. And that's how I lead, that's how I teach. I am not an expert. I am only an expert in who I am and your own only an expert and who you are. and So the way I teach and train and lead this work is yes, I have a lot of education, qualifications, experiences, awards, etc. But I am not going to use that as a tool to make you think you can trust me, I'm going to create a space in which we can build that, that it's not you and me, it's us together, and it's going to be co creative and collaborative. And that , I trust that you're going to engage with me in this space in a way that is best for you. And something that I also very much teach is that I can't, the reality is I can't hold safe space for people, I can't make people feel safe. Because what feels safe for me may not feel safe for you. And each of us has our own barometer and our own sense of what safety feels like. So to assume you're just automatically going to feel safe around me is actually quite harmful. What I can do is ensure my spaces are strong enough, brave enough and empathetic enough to ensure that you can come into my space, whether it's on my website, my social media, training, mentorship, and you can access that internal safety.

Laura Jean 56:16

I love both of those pieces that piece around trust, speaking the language there around the non hierarchical stuff and how we, yes, challenge those ideas of manufacturing authority and trust and even just relying on that, yeah, trust that is kind of been conflated with education, or status, you know, that sort of hierarchy, that status. So I really appreciate that. And that last piece that you shared as well around safe spaces, I think as people start to move into this area, there's that desire to want to do no harm and the extension of that becomes 'I'm going to create safe spaces'. But I think that's a really important piece of that is that we can't guarantee other people's safety. And I really appreciate how you, you broaden that idea of space. Because again, I think sometimes we can think about the space we hold is just when we're sitting with the human, or humans. But the space we hold is our website, it is our social media page. They are all the spaces that we are holding. So it goes across that. So I really appreciate that. That piece there. That was really helpful. Thank you, Katie. Absolutely. So I think that that is a really,, I could talk to you all day and ask questions and invite your questions and analysis too, because I think it's so helpful. I mean, anyone who's been hanging around in my spaces knows that I'm big on questions, you know, big on us asking ourselves questions, and reflecting. And so I really appreciate all of the gold that you've shared in our conversation. To wrap up, if people anyone listening wants to learn a little bit more about you, or check out some of your offerings, where's the best place for people or places spaces for for them to connect.

Katie Kurtz 58:03

So I feel like Instagram is my front porch looking out to the world, especially in this pandemic time. So I love connecting and having deeper conversations over on Instagram. folks can find me at its underscore Katie Kurtz, and then Katie, Katie dash, Kurtz .com is my web home. And so if anyone listening feels like they want to engage in any further connection, or learning around trauma informed leadership, and specifically trauma informed space holding I do offer some on demand workshops, I have, again, cultivate is my signature trauma and from space holding training, which I'll run again in the new year. I have some blogs, just some information on again, going beyond that traditional trauma informed care model and really expanding it and deepening it into trauma informed space holding.

Laura Jean 59:07

Excellent. And I'll add all of those links on the show notes so people can check that out over at dietitian values.com you can check out the podcast show notes there to get the links to Katie's work, and I highly recommend following, which I'm sure you will be doing after listening to all of the gold that Katie shares here. Well, unless you don't want to listen to somebody else giving you more questions, of course, but I think they're valuable questions. So thank you so much for your time, Katie. I truly appreciate it. And I feel really honoured to have been in conversation with you and just dug into this a little bit today. It's been really, really nourishing. Thank you.

Katie Kurtz 59:44

Thank you so much. I'm honoured to be here and connect with you. I always am like, should I start a podcast because I'm like, I can't I'll just talk forever because there's so much to talk about. And that's why I'm so grateful and honoured to be invited in spaces like this to look at specific you know even just the world of diet/dietetics and non diet dietitians like there's so much we could explore so thank you so much I'm grateful we're connected.

Laura Jean 1:00:08

Absolutely yes well I highly recommend starting a podcast I started mine because yeah, I can't shut up about this stuff because I'm talking about you know, I love being in conversation but I just love talking about you know, just taking stuff that bit deeper because I'm similar to you that Instagram is where I love to hang out and love to start building those connections and then you kind of want to go a bit deeper and so I think I highly recommend you digging into the podcast world.

Katie Kurtz 1:00:32

I you know, I have had two podcasts in the past and I love it. And so there might be something in my future because like I said, there's so much nuance with this that we need to have more than just the characters and squares on Instagram, we need more conversation and dialogue.

Laura Jean 1:00:50

Hmm, yeah. And that space that you know, and continuing the amazing ways that you are holding space, I suppose it's just another another part of that. So we'll watch this space, then Katie, maybe. Look out for it. Well, thank you so much. I'll let you get on with your evening or possibly head off to bed. And thank you for all of you tuning in. I really appreciate you and the time that you've given to us today. And until next time, bye for now.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai