The term ‘doing the work’ gets bandied about quite a lot. But what does that look like in action?

Today I’m talking to Alissa Rumsey about just that. The discomfort, the getting it wrong and then the showing up and continuing to take action anyway. Alissa generously shares her experience, what she’s doing differently, her process to ‘do better’ and the support that’s been vital along the way.

Alissa Rumsey is a Dietitian by training, but mostly a human holding space for other humans. She’s based in Brooklyn New York and has a virtual practice supporting women to break free from diet culture and live their most authentic and liberated lives. She also supports dietitians getting started in business and is the author of the book Unapologetic Eating.

So much in this episode.

Let’s dive in.

Links, resources & mentions

Radicle sign up page

Alissa’s website: alissarumsey.com

Connect with Alissa on Instagram

Kelly Diels

Lindley Ashline

McKensie Mack

Episode Transcript

Laura Jean

Hello, hello and welcome back to another episode of the dietitian values podcast. Today, I have a good friend here having a chat, Alissa. Alissa Rumsey who is an RD over in the US. And I'll let Alissa introduce herself partly one because I'm a good host, and partly too because I was just saying to Alissa, before we jumped on, I forgot to grab her bio, and I could make some stuff up, not make some stuff up about Alissa I could put together some thoughts about Allisa, but I will let her introduce herself. Today Alissa and I are just going to chat a little bit about doing the work basically. doing the work to build a business and build a practice and a way of practising that is, is one where we you know, we go into it with our eyes open, where we challenge our own biases, and where we try and be more inclusive. So I'm going to hand over to Alissa and we're just gonna have a little bit of conversation about that. And I'm hoping that this will be just one supportive for you around if you're on this sort of path, you know, if you're doing the work, and just giving you get a glimpse into what that looks like for other other dietitians, a little bit of a you know, you're not alone. This isn't supposed to be a space of, you know, making you think that you're behind, or any guilt or shame or anything like that this is literally just a conversation to think about where we're at, and where we're going. Okay, that was a bit of a longer spiel than I thought over to you, Alissa.

Alissa Rumsey 2:29

Wonderful, thank you so much for having me, Laura. So by way of introduction, so I am a dietitian by training, I'm based in Brooklyn, New York. And I, you and I have had this conversation around, you know, kind of my identity as a dietitian and how that's been been shifting. So I now use some kind of different terms, you know, I feel like the work I do is more around food and body liberation, food and nutrition therapy. And, as I quote you, on my website, a human holding space for other humans. So I do that through I have a, a virtual practice, where my team and I work with people to help them get free from diet culture and from society's oppressive systems and from chronic dieting, and really help them reclaim the space to eat and live and, and live their most authentic, liberated lives. So I have that practice. I'm also the author of the book, unapologetic eating. And I do work as well with professionals, I have an online course for entrepreneurs starting their businesses, and yeah, I do do a little bit of that work on the side as well, though primarily it is it is the practice that I do.

Laura Jean 3:57

Keeping yourself busy, Alissa.

Alissa Rumsey 4:01

I know us as dietitians, always multitasking and multi passionate and all that.

Laura Jean 4:07

Absolutely. And what sort of got you to where you're at now, like have you always practiced through the sort of the non diet lens or what's been your kind of journey across that.

Alissa Rumsey 4:20

So no, I have not always practised from that lens. I was, have been dietitian for 13-14 years and completely weight centric training. I also came to dietetics and got interested in high school and it was from my own place of dieting and disordered eating and struggling with my body image. So I came into it already kind being very influenced by diet culture. And so I think what saved me maybe a little bit is that the first six or seven years of my career as a dietitian, I worked in a clinical setting and specifically intensive care unit. So while yes, diet culture even does show up there, it wasn't so much my day to day. But then when I left that job about,seven years ago, I started my own practice and was doing weight loss and more like weight centric care from a, what I considered like a mindful eating bend, thinking that I was non diet, but was definitely still, you know, wrapped up in in diet culture. And then I came to this work originally was introduced to the weight inclusive approach to health, from Evelyn Tribole, and her six week Intuitive Eating training series that she does. And yeah, my mind was just blown. I'd never heard of Health at Every Size, I'd never, you know, seen any of this research that's now like, Whoa, this is so clear around how just dieting not only doesn't work, but it's so harmful, and you know, just the weight in health science and, intuitive eating framework.

And so I came to it through that, from that place. And then, you know, I was introduced to the more social justice components of this work. And again, as a, I'm white, I'm thin cisgender, heterosexual, able bodied financial privilege, educational privilege, lots of privileges. And so, you know, for me, it was something that I just hadn't seen, because I never had to, because wherever I looked, I was reflected back, or people that looked like me were reflected back. So yeah, it took me, you know, I probably was introduced to intuitive eating about five or six years ago, and then and shifted my practice to weight inclusive, but then it took another year or so to kind of really understand more, or start start to understand let me say, more of the oppressive roots of diet culture, and, you know, the social justice component of this work. And so that has been kind of a newer, newer thread for me that I've continued to go deeper and deeper with.

Laura Jean 7:13

Yeah, and I think that that's, it's great to hear your story, I think there's a lot of things that other dieticians could really relate to, you know, that personal kind of pull into dietetics for a lot of our peers and colleagues around our own bodies and our own relationship with food for that, and that sort of kind of oblivious phase, not oblivious, you know, that phase, where you're just kind of doing the training stuff, and then the phase that Fi Sutherland calls the splinter ass phase, where we've all been, you know, as dietitians, if you've made that jump from the weight inclusive or just traditional training, and if you've been trained, you know, probably any time previously to the last, maybe the last three or four years, we're starting to see it coming to some courses not even all, you know, you've definitely it's that splinter-assing phase where you're moving away from our traditional training into this whole idea. And then it starts out with that whole the the non diet approach. And then once you jump down that rabbit hole, if you're really, if you're thinking about it, or just I think if you have your eyes open, then you can't help but not start seeing the social justice route. Start seeing that real bigger. Yeah, the bigger picture the bigger systems at play for sure.

Alissa Rumsey 8:34

Yeah, exactly. and it was something that, just to normalise this if anyone else out there is feeling this. When I first kind of started to see and hear about the social justice and oppressive roots, it like freaked me out - what is this? It felt so big and so scary. And it was me having to confront my privilege and all this stuff that I hadn't done any real work around. And I was lucky to be in community with someone at the time who I said this to and she was like 'that's okay, this takes time'. So she held me accountable in the sense of this is where you need to go but also giving me space to have those feelings of, what I see now, as a lot of fragility around that. And so I think it's something that, at the time seeing this I was like, 'Oh my gosh, how do I do this?. And it felt, at the time, it felt so much easier to just go back to the way I was practising. But as you said, you know, once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it. And luckily, I had this person in my life who was like, no, you can keep moving forward. You're not going to be you're not going to get it perfect. Like, you know, it's going to take a really long time. This is like an ever evolving thing. So having someone say that o me at the outset really, really helped me kind of continue down that rabbit hole without, you know, getting scared and like running the other way.

Laura Jean 10:09

It's so important that support piece or just that normalising of that it is hard, it is uncomfortable, and it will take time. And I sort of think myself, it's a long term thing, you know, it's never going to be done. I think part of our training sort of thing, when we're thinking about learning new things, or, or, quote unquote, mastering new things, it's like, well do this course do this thing, and then you'll be an expert at it, or then you'll be 'tick, done' on that sort of CPD. And I think that's a piece of this whole space is that you never, it's never going to feel like that. But that's okay. And that's normal. And absolutely, everybody out here doing this work feels exactly the same. That, you know, that there's always more to learn, that you always feel uncomfortable, you always feel like you're challenging parts of yourself, because you are I think, so yeah. And I can really relate to that. I didn't have anyone. When I was at that point of mine, I was coming back to work post bubba. And I was sort of, you know, getting back into the space online space. And I was just sort of like, right, and, and things would shift, the conversation had shifted a little bit in certain spaces to include the social justice element. And then I was just like, Yeah, I had that very much like, I don't know enough about this, how am I ever going to get it, I'm going to say the wrong thing, you know, that very much. That kind of idea. Like, I can't tackle that. And I didn't have any humans to talk that through with at that time. I felt, not isolated but like very much, because I had been on maternity leave. And so I was just sort of like, okay, well, I'll just Yeah, I mean, you know, just kind of worked through a bit too. So I was like, Yeah, I'll just take one step. Well, I'll just do, I'll do what I know how to do. And, you know, start there. So yeah. But I think having somebody having had, or that opportunity to have those conversations, or somebody supporting and just who'd been doing the work. I can imagine that would have felt, yeah, felt really much more normalising it just making it more approachable, I suppose.

Alissa Rumsey 12:19

Yeah. Yeah. Because it really does fly in the face of everything we are taught as, as dietitians. And as humans, a lot of ways.

Laura Jean 12:29

And there is that, like you said, I mean, there's a couple of things that possibly come up. Everyone's experience is different. But I know you and I have talked about it. And just side note for anyone. We've said we've said both said a couple times we've talked about it. So Alissa and I meet once a month, and we've been doing that for about a year now. Yeah. And we just, we have a space where we talk about what we're working on, where we talk about how we're feeling uncomfortable, where we talk about, I suppose we're sort of It's a peer space, where we kind of, I can't think of a word, we don't hold us accountable. It's a space where we can show up and just talk about what we're what we're up to really. Yeah, I don't know, if you've got a better way of explainingthe word accountable wants to pop out of my mouth, but it's not we're not holding each other accountable, where it's just a space where we're supporting each other. Really?

Alissa Rumsey 13:23

Yeah, yeah, I think allowing space for these kinds of discussions to happen and, and yeah, not necessarily accountable. But I do think for me, personally, it has helped me just continue to keep my goal of working towards more anti oppressive business, more top of mind, because it's very easy again as someone with a lot of privilege to you know, just get caught up. And you know, I think I've shared with you in some months, I'm like, oh, yeah, I was doing this. And then I stopped and didn't even realise I stopped. And so I know, it helps me to keep it top of mind. But yeah, really, the benefit of having that space to show up and talk these things through has been so so helpful.

Laura Jean 13:23

Yes, talk it through and get it wrong. And, and one piece that I took out a lot of like last year, you know, where I think a lot of people deepened their understanding and awareness around the systems all around us, was that it's the responsibility of us as thehumans who hold a lot of privilege to, to kind of, you know, to be in community and supporting each other to make these changes and to learn. That's not the responsibility of humans who have already got a lot of responsibility and have a lot of oppression and a lot of other things they're dealing with. It's not their job to hold our hands, not that we're asking for anyone necessarily to do that, but a lot of the things that that when you have privilege that we are asking for unconsciously, we don't realise the burden necessarily that can place on somebody else. So that was something I took away, which was one of the reasons I reached out to you to have a space where those conversations can be. Yeah. Sorry. I cut you off.

Alissa Rumsey 14:37

No, that's okay. No, I was just , thinking about the, that has been really helpful for me both, you know, I have hired people who, you know, black and brown women and fat women, and you know, people with different identities from kind of consulting on an anti oppressive business. But yes, having this like, consistent space, where we can both show up together, you know, as white women, as dietitians, as you know, people with a lot of privilege and talk about how we can leverage that privilege and continue working towards this has been really, really invaluable.

Laura Jean 15:55

Can you talk to that a little bit Alissa, I think that that is something, and I know, you've talked around it before, but that reaching out for support, paying for that support, like that experience? If you could talk to that a little bit?

Alissa Rumsey 16:11

Sure. So yeah, as you were mentioning before, I think, for me, while I had been, you know, learning more about kind of social justice, and specifically like fat liberation, but it started, you know, kind of learning and reading a bit more around racial justice. 2020 for me, like I think it was for a lot of people was a really big shift and kind of aha moment, and I think it would have been anyways, but I was also in the midst of writing my book, writing my first book. And so I was writing this book. And I mean, I literally signed my contract a week before the world shut down with the pandemic in 2020, which was, yeah, very, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna have all this time to write. And then it was like, Wait a second. You know, I'm living in New York City and like the epicentre and the anxiety was just wild. And yeah, I basically didn't get any writing done for several months. And then yeah, the, you know, racial reckonings that were happening in the US at the time, after the murder of George Floyd and, and yeah, I was having a lot of just doubts about, you know, why did I get this book contract and who am I to write this book, and I was sharing this with Kelly Diels, which I think that's how you and I both actually met was through something she had done. And Kelly said to me, she introduced me to the concept of having a, like an anti oppressive reader, like someone read my book from that lens and like paying them to do that from like a different lens than mine. And so I'd never heard of this before, but I started digging and finding several people's names, I ended up hiring two people Linley Ashlyn, who is a fat white woman in the the HAES community, and then also McKensie Mack, who they own a company called Radical copy. And they and their team, you know, don't just do books, they do basically anti oppression audits and business as a whole. And they read my book, kind of through the lens of a black person, the non binary person, but also just kind of all the different forms of oppression and just to see, you know, to find where my bias was showing up, and to help me see that and to help me really write the most inclusive, anti oppressive book that I could or make it as, as inclusive and anti oppressive as I as I could. And so that, I mean, that experience with with the book was really, really incredible. Because, you know, obviously what I'm writing in the book is the stuff that I do day to day in my business. So it wasn't just impacting the outcome of the book and the content of the book, but also just, you know, how I work with clients and how I show up online and all these different things. And then I ended up continuing to work with McKensie. After we finished the book component of our work together and yeah, I just had conversations with them again, like paid conversations with them that I paid them to talk about how to make my business more anti oppressive and how to show up and how to leverage my privilege and be like really intentional with using this power that's been taken from others and given to me because of my privilege and through nothing I've done but how to take this power and give it back and to to leverage that and to help the people who that power was was taken from and has been taken from. And something else that Mackensie said to me that I know you and I have spoken about too is like just normalising that you're going to cause harm, like there's no such thing as a completely harmless business. So yeah, they started having conversations with me about how do you face that harm? And how do you hold yourself accountable for that? And what are you holding yourself accountable for? And so it was a really amazing experience. And it's just impacted, you know, every facet of my work in my business, but also my life as a whole. But I think that piece around Yes, I think as, as white people, we have to have our spaces to be in community with each other. But also we need to seek out and pay people that don't look like us and who have different lived experiences, and who have been doing this work for, you know, decades and decades to, to really learn learn from them as well.

Laura Jean 20:54

Absolutely, I think that piece, you know, when you said in, there, it really stood out to me that you need somebody who looks at the world, who experiences the world in a different way. Because I think we can do all the learning all the hypothetical awareness, and we can have awareness and empathy and all of that stuff, but we don't have that lived experience. And so I think I can only imagine that yeah, that powerful impact of that somebody else reading the book through that way or reading, you know, for other people reading maybe not writing a book, you know, reading your website, copy reading the content of a programme that you're working on, who actually has that lived experience versus what potentially maybe as we go along this path of this work, what we can do is think well I can read it with that stuff in mind, like that's just so different, like such a different, different concept or different way to to go about it.

Alissa Rumsey 21:55

Totally, totally. And yeah, I mean, it's, again, it's like I still, even when I, you know, am intentional and think about like, Okay, I'm writing from this lens, what am I missing? Like, there's still, I miss stuff every time and that's, again, because it's informed by my lived experience. So yeah, I just think the, the piece around continuing to listen and learn and something else McKensie had suggested to me that I've done a couple of times and want to continue doing is also, you know, specifically in our kind of, like, weight inclusive, non diet community I've reached out and offered to pay people and ask to pay for their time to just talk about and strategize like how I can support them and their work. Because yeah, I can look at it from the outside and think like, oh, maybe they would appreciate like a shout on social media or like, whatever to, you know, again, trying to, like, leverage this, this unjust power that I have, and that I've been given. But like, I don't know, that's like my thought, right? So Mackensie had suggested, why don't you reach out and offer to pay them for their time, and then strategize and ask them, you know, what do you need, what would be helpful? And just kind of doing that sort of learning. And then they've had some calls where it's, it's specific, but also some calls that have been really helpful, that are just kind of more general. And, you know, cuz I think even within our communities, there's a lot of harm that can happen. And that does happen. And so that's been really helpful as well, too, and is something I, you know, want to continue to do.

Laura Jean 23:35

Yeah, we don't need to know, we can ask, that just sort of like, jumped out when you were saying that, you know, something that keeps humans stuck, and I know, my own experience, and when I've worked with dietitians around this is that whole feeling that we need to know, we need to know, before we take action? Or we need to know like, how, how how, like, we focus so much, and it stops us even from taking any action, I think redirecting that, reminding ourselves we don't need to know but that yeah, that we can ask. And yes, sometimes that means just you know, a relationship we might have, but also sometimes that is a reaching out, offering to pay other humans for their labour, their time, their knowledge, their lived experience, their expertise, basically. And, and yeah, and ask, so I think that's really important. Yeah, yeah. Because I think that I don't know if you've had those experiences where you get sort of stuck in that spot of well, how do I do this? How do I move forward? How, but I think that that could be a very helpful antidote to that stuck space.

Alissa Rumsey 24:44

Yeah, yeah, I think as well like for me too, it's been being okay with messing up or being as okay as I can with with messing up and not getting things quote unquote, perfect. Because I think for a long time, far too long, I was not speaking about these things or not posting for fear of like saying the wrong thing or not doing it right. And, you know, that doesn't help anyone. It also doesn't help me because it doesn't let me get out there and start to like, we learn by making mistakes. And we learn by people calling us in. And that's why being in community with people like you, and like other people who can be like, oh, like, Hey, you said this thing? And have you thought about this and being able to, like, take that feedback. So I think that's also, you know, I know you and I have spoken about this from the lens of business and just kind of like moving forward in business and not waiting for things to be, quote unquote, right, or completely perfect or ready. But also, you know, I take that into, into this work into this anti oppression work too of, I only know what I know, I don't always know what I don't know, and just being okay with putting stuff out there, and then getting feedback and taking time to process that feedback and learn from it and integrate it.

Laura Jean 26:01

Absolutely. And are there any, have you had any experiences, I think this is something that potentially people can be a bit fearful of when starting to talk around in this space Or maybe do the work? Has there been any instances or experiences of being called in for you? And that you'd like to share? And maybe sort of go through that process? You know, from that initial reaction to what's played out for you?

Alissa Rumsey 26:28

Sure, sure. So yeah, I've had, you know, kind of smaller one off sorts of things where maybe, you know, what's coming to mind is like, I've posted something on social media, and someone has DM'd me, or responded,to tell me like, Oh, you missed this, or this didn't land well, and here's why. And it's been really interesting, kind of seeing the progression of that happening. Because I can look back to a year ago, when there was something like that, and how I did feel really defensive. And I was able to see that, you know, I had done enough work up until that point that I was able to be like, 'Oh, you're getting defensive, like there's something here'. But also when I ended up like addressing it in my Instagram story I remember I sent it to a friend afterwards to ask What do you think about my response to this? And she's like, 'well, it's pretty good.' She's like,'but you do still like kind of sound like you're justifying it'. I was like, Ooh, thank you. So then I got like, you know, my friend called me in and it was, you know my instinct was still to try to like justify what I had done, even when I was apologising for the impact I was still trying to justify. And then, so these were just kind of like smaller, more one off things. And this is actually something I spoke about with McKensie too. During the tail end of 2020, because I saw something kind of play out online between two other people, not people I'm in community with, but people who have pretty large communities of their own, and between a white woman and a black woman. And my book had not come out yet. And yeah, there was definitely a part of me that was fearful of this happening. And, you know i brought it up with McKensie, because I was looking at the white woman's response online and to me, I was like, oh, yeah, like, this seems to make sense. This seems like a good response to being called in. But I knew I'm like, I'm sure I'm missing something. And I'm sure that if I asked McKensie, this is gonna be a learning moment for me. And so I asked McKensie, and they had actually seen this playing out as well. And yeah, they pointed out all these things that the white woman like, why the white woman's response was not good. A big part of that was the not taking ownership or not speaking to like the power differential between a white woman and a black woman, and like justifying their actions. And so I had that, you know, I had that conversation probably about a year ago with them. And then these smaller interactions throughout the year. And then just about a month ago, I posted something on Instagram. And I posted something and within a few hours, I had an intern who was actually like helping with content development that month, and they said Oh, so you might want to check Instagram, because you're starting to get a lot of comments. And I had posted something and failed to say who I learned it from and while you know, the words were technically mine, I used some terms that were developed by somebody else, and I didn't cite them. And this person, it was a black woman. And so I believe what happened was that they had actually posted something on their story about it. So then I was getting a lot of some white, but a lot of black folks in my comments as well really just calling me out for you know, not citing her and for, you know, kind of quote unquote profiting off of like her knowledge or making it seem like it was mine. Now of course, that was not my intent like this was someone just my first reaction. Here's like the defensiveness and the justification, my first reaction was like, Oh my gosh, this is a complete oversight. I have cited this person's work multiple times. And like other mediums my book, like emails I've sent out, like, I've cited them before, it was an oversight. But I pretty quickly went from that to like, okay, it is not helpful for me to say that, like, I don't need to, and it was funny, I was looking back at the conversation I had with McKensie, like, after my response to it, and I was like, Oh, this, I didn't like recall that's what we talked about. But it was definitely in there. Because, yeah, I took responsibility. I was like, You're right. this is definitely their work, I should have cited them, I've learned so much from them, you know, and going back and kind of

taking that feedback and integrating it. So it was something where in the moment, it felt really shitty. Because, like, these are people who don't know me, and I still have that part of me of just like, wanting people to like me, and it's like, Okay, now, here's this person who I really respect, and I really respect their work and now they think that I'm, you know, they've now like, blocked me and all of this stuff. So that was really challenging. But it was also interesting too to just see this shift in again, thinking about that one, like a much smaller thing that happened a year prior, and where my, you know, when I thought I was taking acknowledgement, but my friend called me out for being like, well you're still justifying it, and just to see that difference in a year of Yeah, it still felt shitty, but I was like, Nope, they're, right. Like, I pretty quickly moved through that. And, and, you know, I think this also speaks to the ability to have spaces because like, as a human, like, that doesn't feel good, right. But like, that was what I needed to be held accountable and to, give this person credit. And so it was really helpful to have, I'm in a another group that's what run by a woman of colour, but it's for white women specifically, and happened to very luckily had a group meeting with them that same day that this happened, and it felt really, really supportive to be able, I think I said this to you after the fact of like, I felt like, they heard me and they heard, like my upsetness. And some of like, I know that was some fragility, but still, I was like emotional about it. And so like, having people to hold that space, but also holding me accountable, like not letting me off the hook, like that combination. I know you and I have spoken about this of like, that seems that's very rare, to have someone who's holding space for you to feel your feelings, and to feel all this discomfort. But also not letting you off the hook for that. So that's, you know, this, again, just happened like a couple of weeks ago. So it's still something I'm, I'm sitting with, but it's been interesting to be able, using my mindfulness skills to kind of like take a step back and, and look at how my reaction has shifted. And, and yeah, just in having these different communities now to have support from too

Laura Jean 33:26

thank you for sharing that there's so many pieces in there, like so many, I think, bits that are really helpful like the that, you know, one that you won't always feel how you feel in this moment, in these situations, it will change as you keep doing the work. I mean, I've sort of heard that coming through there. The other one is that similar to anything you work on around mindfulness and around change and things and awarenesses, that it doesn't make it go away, like being more aware, being more doesn't necessarily make those reactions, those first sort of reactions go away. What I heard was that it, it supports you to build space to create that space, literal space you find in spaces, but also just within yourself that space to slow down. And really that slowness, rather than act with urgency, that defensive feeling, if we follow those kind of initial reaction threads, then it pushes us to respond, to react straightaway versus giving ourselves that time to think to put all of the work you have been doing, to actually bring it into that moment and respond from that point, which will change over time, like you said, so thank you for sharing that. I think that there's a lot that other humans, I know I always take away, I know I've heard you talk about it before but still as I was listening there's just all that stuff to hold. so thank you. I think that's really helpful. And I know that we've talked a lot about that. whole kind of calling in calling out kind of stuff and where that how that kind of plays out. So thanks for sharing your example.

Alissa Rumsey 35:07

Yeah, yeah. And something just came to mind something that you said to me because yes, you and I spoke about this as well, I think like a week or two after it happened. And something that you said to me that was such a good reminder too is I forget the exact wording. But something to the effect of, you know, because I think I was noticing my own fragility in that moment, but also just like, you said something of like, okay, it's like human to, like, have emotions or to like, feel these things. And just because you know, doesn't mean that that's just going to turn off and you're never going to feel like defensive or upset or whatever. But yeah, like, what do we do with that? And, you know, I think that that, like normalising that piece was like, oh, yeah, I'm never gonna get to a point where this doesn't feel like upsetting or, you know, I can see the difference from a year ago, where, oh, my gosh, this happened, like, yeah, even like, six months ago, probably I would have been in like, a spiral for weeks. And this was just like, it was a day. And I'm like, Yep, I feel pretty shitty, like, what can I do to, you know, support myself, and, you know, just like, move through these feelings. And so I think that that's something too, that's, that really helped me from our conversation was like, yeah, like this stuff is gonna happen. And, you know, how can we we find those places of support to, to move through it? And yeah, so that was, that was really helpful. I keep thinking about that as well.

Laura Jean 36:35

I'm glad that was supportive for you. I think Iposted about this. And it was last week, when we plot you know, that that desire, like we were doing this work, the key for this work isn't to make us different, it's to act differently, like do things differently, we're still going to be the same, like we're still gonna have the same reactions, we're still gonna have all those same feelings. The piece that we change is how we react and how we respond, hopefully respond more than react, you know, to that. And what goes on in us and like you said, comparing the two so the feelings still there, but rather than Yeah, get caught up in that shame spiral. And again, for the non diet, dietitians, it's the same stuff we support the humans we work with, around around food, like things will still happen in their relationship with food, our work is often around helping them with what happens after that, you know, where do they go? And how are they avoiding the shame and the guilt and the blame and just recognising we're humans humaning and over here and doing all of the normal human things. Yeah, and we can respond. Yeah. And we can add in all these other lenses, and all this other ways that we can, we can respond in the way that moves us towards our values, I think. And you've shown how you've gathered that support around you, to to move you towards your values in how you know, how you take action, and how you respond when all of these standard human life happens.

Alissa Rumsey 38:08

Yeah, I think that respond instead of react pieces is so, so huge.

Laura Jean 38:14

And I'd love to sort of talk about if you might not have like a concrete exact like process around this, but something that's come up while we've been talking around repair, so around when harm does happen, or even just with when you're about to put something out, and when you know, there is the potential for harm, etc. Do you have a process that you put in place for around that, like, maybe it's around, you know, how you how you kind of mean, like, you know, you're thinking about harm, how you minimising or even how you're building in a process for a pair, maybe it's an individual things? Or maybe it's just overall in your practice or how you're working at the moment? Do you have anything there?

Alissa Rumsey 38:57

good question. So a couple things coming to mind. I think, again, that conversation I had with Mackensie, I come back to that in the sense of like, when I have caused harm, like the example I gave from the social media post a few weeks ago, of not justifying and of acknowledging the impact I had and taking ownership of that. like not disappearing, like staying in that space, even when it's really uncomfortable. And yeah, acknowledging and then figuring out myself and then speaking to if there's a specific person or group harmed like speaking to, how am I going to do better in the future? And that's something I think that is something I'm continuing to think about in terms of this example. But yeah, I think the the taking ownership, acknowledging without feeling like they need to do justify and then figuring out like, how am I going to do better in the future and what, you know, things am I going to put in place? You know, like, for example, this one came about, and I mentioned how I've cited this person in the past. And what was happening at this time was, so I normally only post on social media, you know, maybe once or twice a week, and it's like when something occurs to me. But I was in the midst of a course launch. And so I had this, like, 'ooh I need to be like posting every day or five times a week'. So I was creating like large volumes of content, which I normally do not do. And, you know, clearly through that I was not being as intentional because I was focused on the need to get this volume of content out there. And so that, to me, was a real reminder of coming back to each of the posts, no matter how often I'm posting, and just like really making sure I am auditing that for what I might be missing, or who I need to cite, or, you know, whatever it is. And the other thing, and this is something I can't actually recall who I heard this from at the moment, but I saw someone I think it was on Instagram, you know, write a post, and at the end, say, What am I missing? Like, let me know, in the comments. And I think that is something that I now want to start doing of just being like, Okay, I know, I'm gonna miss stuff, let me know what it is. So like, preemptively asking for that, that feedback. And so that's something that moving forward I want to do more consistently and do more of.

But yeah, you know, it's a work in progress. And these are the kinds of things that I've been trying to do. And, so I mentioned how McKensie and I had spoken about this a year ago. You know, I had conversations with some people around the experience that occurred a few weeks ago, but that's also something where in the future, depending on what happened, like I would hire someone like McKensie to consult with me on the best way to prepare, if I wasn't sure how to move forward, or if, you know, depending on what the situation was. So, again, in this instance, with the communities I'm in currently, and with, you know, having this previous kind of conversation and getting their thoughts on this, I felt okay with this situation. But that's also something in the future that I have in my back pocket of like, I am ready and willing, if or when I cause harm next, like if it's something to be able to, like pay for consultancy with someone as well.

Laura Jean 42:54

Yes. Back to that, if you don't know, ask, if you get in that situation. And I mean, let's be clear, at least it has quite a large following. So there are a lot of eyes on her account. So you know, if I suppose I'm just sort of caveating that, I mean, we all can do all of those processes, people don't feel fearful about putting things out a lot of the time, nobody's watching, not in a bad way. But like, still held accountable. But you know, I suppose I don't want our conversation to make people feel fearful of taking action either. But that this is what you can do, you can put these things in place that can repair. And I think that piece, if you don't know, ask whether it's a peer, whether it's a support person that you have, or whether it's going out and paying for somebody with that different lens that different lived experience that cansupport you to see what you're missing, just to broaden your own lens, particularly as we come across things that we've never, never experienced never thought about or we're just stuck even in that defensiveness when we can't see out of what's going on where you just it's similar to you know, how you take something to a friend to kind of, you know, to get that objective or outward sort of lens on to a situation, isn't it? But in a way that just honours other people's time and expertise and lived experience.

Alissa Rumsey 44:23

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, look, I totally get the the fear of, you know, having this happen to you. But at the same time, I mean, speaking from experience, like these are the situations where I have learned and grown the most and it's, again, my reaction to it was completely different than it would have been, again, six months, 12 months, definitely different than several years ago. And I just, you know, it's while yes, there was like, some shame started to come in, like I was able to really like take those mindfulness skills and take this community I'm in and be able to, like defuse that shame and, you know, again, figure out how to move forward. And something that in the other group, I'm part of that I mentioned. We were talking about this situation, but it kind of just being the calling out in general. And certainly as you get more visible, something Kelly Diels always says, like, as you get more visible, you have more eyes on you, it's much more likely to happen. But yeah, we were talking about this, and one of the women said, and this was something that she had been called in on, because I think she was talking with a, I think it was a black friend of hers around this, and her friend called her in and said, Look, you know, for you the risk is discomfort. And the risk is, you know, being uncomfortable and feeling defensive and being upset. For black people, the risk is dying. And just like that, like put it in such stark perspective, and you know, that's something I also keep coming back to is like the risk of me putting stuff out there and like messing up or screwing up. Yeah, it's feeling a little uncomfortable, and, you know, having to have these conversations and but yeah, that risk is so much less. And so that really has pushed me to take ownership of this unjust power I've been given and use that and not just like, sit on that and not share anything. Because yeah, the risk for me is way less than the risk for people of historically marginalised identities. So, you know, whenever I feel like, oh, like, this is so much I'm like, okay, yes, it is, but it is way worse and so much harder and so much more for other people that don't have my my privileges.

Laura Jean 46:45

Yes, and I think we can redirect in that way is really useful, rather getting it in that, you know, that kind of like, oppression Olympics type, thinking around like, well I don't have it as bad, you know, that kind of thought is that literally, like, this is the privilege I have, and how do I use that? And it's pushing it into that action versus the shame or guilt around having privilege? But actually, yes, I have this privilege. And this is one way I can use it or leverage it. And, and also to that piece around discomfort, I think, too, I was talking to Naureen. RDS for neurodiversity, who we've had on the podcast before around this difference between discomfort and harm. And when we have experienced a a lot of privilege, having the difference, or knowing and feeling the difference is hard, because discomfort feels, because we haven't necessarily had much experience with that harm with that threat to safety. And so yeah, the more we just expose ourselves to that, and recognising that it truly is just discomfort. The maybe the, the impact, or the the outcome of that is, like you said, people not liking us, people blocking u,s people doing these things. It's not t the very real harm that can happen for people from identities who have have not as much privilege and not as much power for sure.

Alissa Rumsey 48:21

Yeah. Oh, my gosh, I love that the discomfort versus harm. So so good.

Laura Jean 48:26

Yeah, well, I think that's it and I was quipping to Naureen actually, in the DMs and sort of said like, yeah, people who have not experienced much of either like, you know, oppression, not much oppression or not, you know, situations where we don't have much power. Finding the difference between oppression and harm and discomfort is, is is harder to see. Because we correlate the two I think a little bit because discomfort feels harmful, because it's harmful to what we perceive as our, you know, our social standing, our being liked our feeling comfy, our right to comfort, it's all of those supremacy characteristics that quote unquote, threatened versus for somebody where it's actually true harm where it's their life, their livelihood, their life. They're all of these really big things. That's, yeah, there's a there's a big difference between discomfort and harm for sure. Yes, sitting with that is a big one. Yeah. Oh, well, I'm just a really, yeah, really grateful for you for sharing, for being so open. And yeah, for showing us what you've been working on and working through. And I'm just wondering as we sort of wrap up, so I'm just conscious of the time. I'm just thinking, what would you what, what sort of would you give anyone or maybe you could rather than necessarily feeling like you're giving advice to somebody but even like you know if you went back, so words of wisdom for your younger self, or your pre-now Alissa around getting started. Or maybe it's some practical tips, maybe it's some words of wisdom, maybe it's some questions for reflection of just like for people who maybe are in this sort of early, early stages of the starting this work?

Alissa Rumsey 50:15

Sure. So the first thing that comes to mind is I would tell myself to read and listen and learn from people who don't look like me. Because I look back. And honestly, up until the last, maybe like two years, most of the content I consumed, whether that was workshops, or webinars, or books, or whatever, related to business, but also just kind of, in general, was by white, you know, pretty privileged people. And so I think that is a big thing is that, you know, really seeking out more diverse voices and perspectives, and listening and learning from them. I think to the piece of and this was something that I think Fiona Sutherland was the first one to say this to me in some fashion around when discomfort arises, instead of taking that to be something to push away, or try to make go away or feel, you know, shame spiral into, to have that be like, oh, like, this is interesting, something is here. Like, if I feel defensive or feeling uncomfortable, it's like, oh, wait, there's something here to actually go deeper into rather than, like, often defensiveness makes us, like, we spoke about, react and push back on it. And it's like, you know, now I take that aswhenever defensiveness arises or feeling like I need to justify, I'm like, Okay, wait, let's sit with this. Because there's something here. That is like a flag for me to notice that now. And yeah, I just think strengthening my mindfulness practice and mindfulness skills and the ability to sit with things and not react with the immediate reaction, like, you know, usually that reaction kind of comes up, but to be able to just sit and then make space and respond, which, like you mentioned before, this is what I do with my clients, with their relationships, food in their body, but it's something that really holds true for for everything in life. And so I think, really cultivating those skills and cultivating the skills to be able to notice when I'm activated, like when my nervous system is activated, and also cultivating the tools and skills to help settle my nervous system. So that day that I did get called out a bit. I, yeah, didn't feel great. But I had the tools, my go tos, my coping tools, basically. And so I think, cultivating those, both like individual tools, but also community tools, as well. So you know, I've certainly, I have my music meditation that I do, or I went and like laying on the couch, I put on this music that I just, I have a couple of albums that just immediately, like at this point, it's almost like a Pavlovian response where my nervous system just drops. And I put this heavy blanket on top of me. But then I also had my, you know, my community to be able to actually I probably would have reached out to you like prior to our call, because our call wasn't scheduled that week. But since I had this other call that week, but knowing that I could have reached out to you and been like Laura, like I need, you know, just some support talking through this, like having people in your community. So yeah, these are all things that I wish I would have done earlier and have really helped me in Yeah, just continuing this this practice.

Laura Jean 53:55

So helpful. Thank you so much, Alissa, for your share, sharing those experiences and sort of stepping through, like, what it's been like for you, what this process has been like. because we often, and I know I do, like talk about doing the work. But to just kind of Yeah, pull back the curtain a little bit and what that looks like, recognising that it's messy, it's uncomfortable. And it's an ongoing process. But there's those things, those strategies that you can put in place to feel supported to feel, to be held in our emotions and our feelings but also to be held accountable for changing,for repairing harm or for reducing that impact of harm, even if it means a little discomfort to us. So thank you, I really appreciate that. And I appreciate so much more than that from you. But thank you so much for your time today.

Alissa Rumsey 54:50

Of course, thank you so much for for having this conversation. And yeah, this is something I wish I could have heard about years ago too. So yeah, hopefully it will be helpful.

Laura Jean 54:59

Yeah. Well I'm hoping it feels supportive for anyone listening along. And I really appreciate you as well for taking the time to listen to Alissa and I have a bit of a chat. And hopefully yeah, there's some things there. If anyone would like to sort of reach out Alissa to just kind of follow along with what you're up to what you're doing, where can they find your where's the best place to connect?

Alissa Rumsey 55:23

So they can find me on my website is alissarumsey.com. And then I am most active on Instagram, which is @Alissa Rumseyrd. So that's the best place social media wise to connect.

Laura Jean 55:37

Excellent. And I'll drop that in the show notes, I'll put some links to the amazing humans that Alissa talked to, that she's been learning from. And finding a lot of support from pop that in there as well, so that you can check out their work. And if you are in need of some more support that you know, there's some spaces you can start. And of course, this space here as well, is always here for you to continue the conversation and to reach out for support if you need it. If you don't have a space, if you don't have a community, that is what I'm hoping for us to have here to create that space where we can be held and be held accountable. So thank you, Alissa, for your time. Thank you everyone who's having listen along. do reach out to either Alissa or I if you do if stuff comes up after this if you do need some support, or you do want some support about where to go. Yeah, we're going to be keeping this conversation going. And yeah, you know, the work the work is ongoing. So having that community as Alissa rightly said is so important. Okay I'll let you get on with the rest of your day, wherever this finds you. And until next time, bye for now