Ep 7: Expert vs Expertise
As dietitians, our training and our professional spaces encourage us to think of ourselves as ‘the experts’ in food and nutrition.
But just exactly who does that benefit? Who does that harm? Who does that leave out? And what does it lead to?
I’m digging into this topic today (dropping some adult words!), teasing out the nuance between expert and expertise and encouraging a conversation that may leave you feeling a little challenged and a little (or a lot) uncomfortable.
Let’s dive in.
Links, resources & mentions
@inquisitve_human - James Olivia Chu-Hillman (apologies for getting name order wrong in this ep!)
@chefftessard - Tessa Nguyen’s series on supremacy culture in dietetics
@kelly.diels - Feminist marketing & business coach
Episode Transcript
Hello, hello and welcome back to the dietitian values podcast, your favorite place to chat all things, dietitian stuff. And that's the technical term that we'll be using today. How are you going? It's Laura here and I am keen to chat to you about a little topic that I could probably riff on about for a few days. But I will keep it short and sweet, or short as my verbose words will maintain, I want to talk about 'being the expert'. And particularly, I want to dig in to the nuance between being an expert and having expertise. So pull up a chair, grab a beverage of your choice. And let's chat.
Now, so many dietitians. We are, let's say brainwashed, or programmed, or maybe some of us come to the profession with this idea. But definitely, even if you don't, by the end of the degree, by the end of the training, we have been like had it drilled into us maybe a little bit of brain washing - that we are the experts in nutrition. And if you look at the taglines for some of our professional organizations, think it's the US I think yours is and I don't definitely I can't remember if it still is, I probably should have looked at that before starting recording. But I know at some point that Dietitian's Australia has had this 'being the experts'. And look, I can absolutely understand where this has come from. dieticians, we are shoveled a little bit of shit on top of us, right so we're constantly feel like because this is the sort of water we swimming aware, power. And pardon me being the expert is seen as the thing to be that we feel like we're constantly under attack or under threat or our credentials, or our expertise is under threat, or our expert status by nutritionists, which we all are anyway. But you know those, quote unquote, under qualified ones, by naturopaths, by holistic health coaches, by your best friend's aunty's cousin's cat, I mean, everyone's an expert in nutrition, right? So I completely understand the premise of this idea that we are the experts, it's kind of like taking back that was, the premise, I imagine was to take back that power to really pull back and say, Hey, we are the experts in nutrition. However, I feel that it potentially wasn't thought through as far as it could be. But also it misses a few points. And also, perhaps those decisions were made without the 30 foot view as the movement maestro, my coach shante, who is always talking about going back on that 30 foot view. And Kelly deals who's often talking about toggling in and out. So I think there was a bit of toggling missed here around looking at the bigger picture and thinking about who kind of benefits or? Or where does this idea of needing to be the expert needing to kind of, quote unquote, squash other people or put, you know, kind of lord it over other people to gain our own, you know, status as a profession or within our profession. And as a culprit, dadadada. Surprise, surprise is supremacy culture behind door number one. Supremacy culture is a motherfucker who is kind of setting the scene for all of this, because in supremacy culture, which is our culture, it's the culture we live and working. It is what our health culture is built on. It is what our health systems is built on. It's about power. And it's about hierarchy. It's like a giant bloody ladder, and at the top of the people with the most powers. Now, if you've spent any time within the health system, you know who's at the top, it surgeons, its doctors within the health system, they have the most power. We won't go into who they most tend to be in the past, historically, why perhaps that has been set up that way. I'm sure you could probably figure it put one and one together and get white men. So we've got the hierarchy, we've got the ladder and dietitians are on there, right we've got our little rung and to maintain our rung to maintain our status. how we've been shown that we do that is by pushing other people down the ladder by not letting anyone get above us, that has a similar kind of role to us. You know, we even feel really threatened when doctors start talking about nutrition or personal trainers or other people. And absolutely, I'll caveat this of course, like I'm not talking about people acting outside their scope. I'm not talking about people doing harmful things like a doctor. I remember I worked with who prescribed the keto diet to a client with an active eating disorder like what the ** mother! Like geez She's like, so absolutely.
We do need systems. We do need,I suppose ways to kind of reduce that harm. But you know what, at the same time, I see dietitians right now, working with MLMs I see dieticians, following people like Mark Hyman So, you know, glass houses and all that, we need to make sure that the reason, like what is our intention? What is our reasoning for kind of pushing to be seen as the expert? Is it to prevent harm to others or is it to maintain our own status and power? And real talk? Oops, sorry, actually, that's using African American vernacular English apologies. So truth time, is that we are using systems of oppression to do that. And you know what, most of the times when people cry loudly or get worried about this? Yes, as an afterthought, they're like, Oh, yes, and what about the poor people who are being duped by these, but a lot of the time, the reason behind this is, is around that whole kind of, you know, protecting our patch or watching over our turf. And I don't mean this as in as necessarily even a conscious choice to do this. But subconsciously, this is what impacts on it because we are on that ladder, we're in a culture that tries to that, that is that has shown us how we get more power or how we get more status as dietitians or as as a profession and as individuals within health system. So we come by honestly as the, in the great words of James chuillman, James, James Chui Hillman @inquisitive, inquisitive human on Instagram, as they say, they talk a lot about like relational fuckery, as it comes from supremacy culture. And one of the kind of phrases they use, which I think is really kind of just a great reminder is that we come by it honestly, I'm not saying that anyone went out and said, right, we're going to be like, more powerful, and you know that it was this conscious thing. But that is what it's created. It's created this space where we're so focused on denigrating other people we're like the gatekeepers of food and nutrition knowledge, and it completely wipes out. The fact completely like, you know, ignores the fact that we are not experts in anything, we might have expertise. And I'll get into the nuance of this, but other people are always going to be the experts in them. by us coming at it from this framework of being the expert, it's, again to hat tip to supremacy culture, it's paternalism it's saying that we know better than you it's it's a little bit of white saviorism as well. So if you're not sure of some of these terms, I really recommend article an extract from the work of Tema Okun and Kenneth Jones, and I'll pop a link to the article around that. And also, tess, cheftessard on Instagram has done a little series on how these supremacy culture white supremacy characteristics are evident in dietetics. So I'll link to their account as well so that you can check this information out for yourself and draw your own parallels or not. Or just say Laura doesn't know what she's talking about. I'm never listening to that podcast again. But if this resonates with you, then let's, let's dig in a little bit further.
So we position ourselves an expert, and it's all about power. Yes. Okay. Absolutely. We are concerned about other people harming humans. This is not what this whole expert versus expertise expert thing is about. And let's, let's be honest there. So we're not the experts in any person, except hopefully ourselves. What we do have is expertise. So we have expertise in nutrition, we have expertise in food, you might have further expertise in an area that you work in. I work as a non diet dietitian. So I consider I have expertise in that area and some of the skills and strategies or tools or ways to work with clients in that space. So absolutely. We have expertise in that. We there's there's it's a it's a space where language really matters, because to talk about us having expertise, I think is is an important thing to show where our expertise are, but to claim expert status is part of that whole power over hierarchy stuff. So absolutely, let's shout it from the rooftops that we have expertise that we're here to create and hold space for people who want to work with us who want to, um someone to support them with our particular expertise, always positioning those individuals as the experts in themselves because that's who they are. And the minute we don't see that, that we don't acknowledge that, the minute that we step over that invisible line where we feel and think that we know better is is that when we are dehumanizing when we are taking their sovereignty, their autonomy. We see it in the food spaces and I'm sure you can think about whether it's your own experience as a starting out dietitian kind of you know, as a little foot soldier for the whole expert "i'm the expert" kind of kind of situation where where you might have told people to do stuff that maybe you kind of cringe at now, whether you saw it with a supervisor or on a placement, or whether you see it now on Instagram posts or things where people are telling other people what to do. Like, you can see the the place like where it's really replicated in some parents and kids as well. And it's the same sort of thing like I know better than you, I'm going to tell you what to do, and look full hand up full disclosure, this is something that is something we have to actively work against, in all areas where it shows up, but particularly in our work as a dietitian, you know, I'm not, I'm no expert at this. I have practiced it, I continue to practice it, I try and be aware of it, I try and repair when I do do harm in this realm. When I slip back into that thinking, when I notice somebody putting something up online, that's harmful, or etc. And I come into that whole, you know, I slip into that whole mindset of, oh, what do they do? You know, like that whole way we've been kind of shown to see, to question that or to to really focus on that.
But I think it can be a really big distraction. Because what, who gets off the hook? And hat tip to Kelly Deils for that most excellent question that we can always be asking ourselves when we are focusing on these sort of things is, who gets off the hook when we focus on you know, nutritionists, or we are nutritionists, of course. But like, you know, so called quote, unquote, unqualified nutritionist or naturopath or other people, you know, putting out this information, who gets off the hook, when that's where we put all our energy and our power? And who could we or what could be directed to if we weren't so distracted? By that, we could just direct it to the actual systems all around us that actually create that and that also harm clients and harm humans a lot more and more consistently and more systemically, then somebody posting shoddy advice on Instagram. Now, do I think people should just, you know, shouldn't be a big wild west of nutrition claims? No, of course not. I don't want people to be doing harm. But I've done harm. As a dietitian, you have probably done harm. As a dietitian, I'll probably continue to do harm not consciously, and I will do my very best to repair and learn from that. And create a space where I'm open to being called in and and can, can learn and can change. But while we are so focused on other people, what other people are doing, we're not minding our own business. And of course, for probably the three billionth time this episode, perhaps, or at least the third time, I will hat tip to the inquisitive human, Olivia James, Chui human, sorry, I just had a mental blank of their name order then. who talks about this, this concept, I mean, and they're not the only one that do it. But they were probably the first one that really articulated in a way. But I've seen some real, some good stuff on this too, around, minding our own business, when we are distracted when we are focused on somebody else's business, quote, unquote, or what they're doing, or how they're not doing things, or what harm they're causing. We're really just deflecting, from really looking at ourselves where we need to do the work, and where we need to maybe unlearn some things or where we need to call ourselves in perhaps, or look at things that we could be doing better, personally. now And that doesn't mean we always have to be like, you know, bloody striving to be this best whole 100% perfect version of self because of course, that doesn't exist. But when we get distracted by this whole, like, they're not a dietitian, and we're the experts and why do they get to do it, you know, in Facebook groups all the time, it's bloody, all these people, just spending so much time and energy on pulling these individuals down. Or sometimes it's more than an individual, but what's the system that enables this and who, who gets off the hook, who gets off the hook when we focus on this one individual naturopath handing out harmful advice, or the diet, the nutritionist over there with only two weeks of an online course, like who gets off the hook when we focus on that? You know, nobody's...oh and sometimes it's easy just to sort of think of it and you know, there's comfort and there's safety in positioning ourselves at the expert, because if we're the experts, you know, it feels a bit more like it gives us a little bit that false sense of power that we often have had stripped from us from our culture. So by as women as and I will generalize, shout out to any of the male dietitians listening along, as women or people who have been socialized as women, then we have been our voice has been reduced
power our ability to to gain access to resources has been reduced, but that is because the system we're in and we don't change that by manipulate like, you know, by playing, playing the same game by playing the same rigged game where then we say okay, well now we're going to strip, you know, we get a little bit more power because we're a dietician, we have this professional degree, etc. So we're going to strip that power off somebody else who maybe doesn't have that. The other part of this that gets lost at that I can't speak to completely myself. But I do want to mention it, and I will endeavor to, perhaps get some guests on the podcast. And if you've got any recommendation, once I finally explain what I'm talking about, then please drop them. To me in comments, or send me a DM over at dietician values on Instagram, is the way we erase, other culture and indeed, particularly indigenous cultures and other cultural voices. When we say that we as dietician are the experts in food and nutrition, we erase so much noise because of course, we know there's a lack of diversity in our field, we know that there is in sort of in the, in the medical model, there is certain voices that are heard and certain voices that aren't so by us claiming that were the expert. And if you're not a dietitian, or if you're not these things, you don't tick these boxes, then you can't have any say in food and nutrition, that you don't have any expert status, that you are not an expert in anything around this, then we lose a lot of that as well. And we de-value that and we d humanize the experience of other cultures. And of people potentially who don't have access to that degree to become a dietitian, but have a whole lot of bloody knowledge and expertise. In food and nutrition. In work, with working with communities that that they are involved in, or they're connected to around this area. So one we play their game of, you know, supremacy culture by you know, lording power over other people. It's a big bloody distraction from perhaps our own business, the stuff that we need to be working on around being, you know, doing less harm, taking less shit, being more you. It is, doesn't change anything, it uses our energy, it expends our energy on this little tiny thing. Instead of putting it towards the other, the system, the bigger overarching system, the system gets off the hook. That is where we really want, the culture, like our culture, the culture that creates this, the system that creates this supports this, that's where we want to focus our energy. by focusing on the individual or the person over here that's supposedly stripping our power as being the expert, you know, we just distract ourselves. It takes power away, and dehumanizes, the humans that we work with, because we're saying we know better than you, just listen to us. We're the experts. we confuse expert and expertise, we have expertise, but the humans we work with will always be the experts in them. And lastly, as I mentioned, it just basically erases all of that cultural knowledge, particularly around food and nutrition. Because when we position ourselves or dietitians at the experts, it leaves no space for those experts, the people with that level of expertise to step into roles to step into spaces to speak up to be actually heard.
So and there's a lot of bloody problems with it. And the fact is, it's it's not true, it's a lie. It's based on the whole like hierarchical power house of cards. We are not the experts in other people, we are hopefully working towards being the experts in ourselves of learning and unlearning what we need to do. we can bring out expertise that we have definitely studied and worked our butts off for, of course, coming with a lot of, for a lot of us and myself included, like privilege to get to a place to be able to do that to have access to courses and education and the whole system that supports me, because while I might have the identity of being a woman, which puts us into a disadvantage, that's the extent of my marginalization or my less resourced identities. And so I had access to go to university to have a degree I had access to, to get there in the first place to be offered a place and space, had access to, you know, living away from home, the resources to be able to do that all of the things I had access to support, I had access to so many things that enabled me to become a dietitian in the first place. So there's definitely privilege with that. And again, when we say that we are the experts, only the people that have been through that course or gained this professional status, then we just wipe out a whole lot of people who absolutely have expertise in this area.
So that's my thoughts on this. I think there's maximum, a real lot of nuance between using those terms. And I think that yeah, it's a place where we can shift our language where we can where we can be a bit more intentional. And it's also a place where we can really think about, yeah, who gets off the hook. What are we being distracted by and whose voices are left out of the conversation who misses out on who misses out themselves from sharing their knowledge and expertise and wisdom, and who do we miss out from hearing and who do our, the humans we work with and the communities we engage with miss out from hearing, when we sit in this space of we as the dietician are the experts, and everyone else, no one else, you know, well listen to us, basically.
So, I'm going to wrap this up it's nearly 20 minutes, and I don't want this to be too long, I value your time and I appreciate the time that you give me here. So that's what I got to say on that. For now. If you would like to continue this conversation, please pop over to at dietitian values on Instagram. And as if you have any recommendations on anyone you'd love to hear from more in this area, particularly around how it sits with expertise experts and the whole concept of experts within the food nutrition space for for, you know, the non dominant cultures that we see all the time being you know, positioned as the the main sort of area around food. So let me know your thoughts. And as always, I'll be looking forward to continuing the conversation with you. And I'll be back next week with more of my thoughts and more of your thoughts and, you know, every now and then a scintillating guest, I'll talk to you then have a good one. Bye.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
