Ep 93: Pushing our edges and being human with Fiona Sutherland
Today I'm in conversation with the one and only Fiona Sutherland. You are not going to want to miss this one.
We chat about:
- human centred supervision
- going beyond the label of dietitian
- pushing our edges and challenging our comfort
- scope of practice in changing profession
- brining our humanity into our work and all that brings up
- kindness vs niceness
- and so much more
Fiona Sutherland is an Accredited Practising Dietitian and Director of The Mindful Dietitian. She has been practising for over 20 years primarily in the areas of eating behaviour, eating disorders, body image, sports nutrition & education/training. Fiona is a committed Non Diet Dietitian, and is passionate about supporting & educating Health Professionals to develop skills and insight into working with clients from a weight-inclusive, heart centered lens.
Let's dive in.
Links, resources and mentions
Connect with Fiona
Facebook group for weight inclusive health professionals
Episode Transcript
Laura Jean 0:00
Hello, hello, and welcome to this week's episode of The dietitian values podcast. And it's that time of the month where we have a guest here today. And today's guest is Fiona Sutherland and Fiona is a fellow Australian dietitian. And I had the pleasure of meeting Fiona for the first time in person, even though it feels like we've known each other for a long time at the Dietitians Australia Conference in 2022. And it was so great, you know, coming back out into the world going along to professional events, and to get to meet in person. And I'm so excited to have Fiona here to continue this conversation. And so for those of you who don't know, Fi is the director of the mindful dietitian. And she is an Australian dietitian, as I said, and she is somebody who is really passionate about supporting and educating health professionals to develop skills and insights into working with clients from a weight inclusive, heart centred lens. So she's a woman after my own heart as well. So that's a little brief one from Fi's, website, but I would love to hand it over to you Fi to introduce yourself, and maybe share where you're located in the world and what you are passionate about, what's lighting you up at the moment?
Fiona Sutherland 1:19
Background and current work
Well, absolutely, and thank you so much, Laura, for having me, it is so delightful to be here with you. And it was so excellent to meet you in real life in person at last year's National dietitian's conference. And, you know, to have some of those conversations that we normally have online and to be in person, you know, it really adds an extra dimension to the type of relationships that you can build that we've really missed out on over the past couple of years. So thank you for inviting me for this chat. And hopefully we can get together again in the future. So as you said, I am from Australia, more specifically, I live and work on Wurundjeri country, which is down here in the south east. The colonised name of the area I live is called Melbourne, one of the biggest cities in Australia, second biggest after Sydney, which Sydneysiders love to of course remind us of. But I do love Sydney as well. Let's not be exclusionary here. I am director of the mindful dietitian, as you said, and have been practising as a dietitian for over 20 years now, which I think I need to review that particular part of my statement, my personal statement, because I feel like it's perhaps even edging closer to 25 years. But I want to just, you know, I'll press pause on that and go do that.
And for a majority of my career of my dietetic career, I've had a real interest in human behaviour, in mindfulness, in neurobiology, in a specifically around eating disorders do disordered eating body image. And, you know, and the way in which humans experience food eating and their bodies. And as you know, you and I are well aware, Laura, this can be very complex, it can be very fraught, it can be complicated in so many ways. And I guess what I'm hoping to do, as you know, in my clinical practice, as well as being a supervisor, and teacher and educator, is to be able to introduce people to maybe some more expansive ways of working as a dietitian to be able to understand a little bit more about ourselves in this process. And you know, the various complexities that it is to be a human. So, alongside this, I'm also a proud sports dietitian as well. So I've worked for about 20 years with the Australian ballet school. And, you know, it's just such a thrill to be working with adolescents and to see the development of these young, high performance athletes, as they progress and move through these very vulnerable years.
So, I mean, these days to bring us up to speed with what I'm doing now, most of my time now is actually spent in supervision and in education and training. So, yeah, I do one on one supervision and group supervision, which is actually really honestly what I love doing the most. It is such a privilege to be spending time alongside our colleagues who are incredibly curious, so talented, so insightful and just really want to want to learn more about what it is like to be human working alongside other humans really and that's how I describe supervision. it's a growth oriented area. Where we're curious about ourselves alongside being curious about our clients. So that is a massive privilege to be in this very emerging space of supervision. So that kind of is a that are not so brief bio. But thank you.
Laura Jean 5:18
Redefining Supervision
Thanks, thank you fee. And we're here for all the words. So more words, the better I say, I'm so happy for that, and hearing what you have happening. And I also want to say thank you. And I really appreciate that definition and wrapping those words around supervision, because I think historically as dietitians or clinicians, you know, supervision has always been this kind of more hierarchical type situation, particularly, you know, through our training and as students or you know, when you're first out in early positions, where you might be supervised by a dietitian, and I think it has a different kind of meaning. And so I really love how you wrap words around it, because I think if we're going to change that space and face of creating these spaces for our humanity to be held, so that we can therefore hold the space for other people in their humanity. One of the parts of that is really redefining and really questioning that definition, or what we have or what we hold around supervision, because I think that, that old definition is not really helpful. So I'd love if you want to wrap any more words around that or even just flesh out, what you hold around that?
Fiona Sutherland 6:28
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if we're going to show up in our full humanity, then having specific spaces that are held for us, to be able to lean into that with compassion, and curiosity and kindness, you know, and to allow somebody else to be there with us, actually means that then we can kind of pass on the love, we can pass that on to the spaces that we hold for others. So maybe we're in managerial positions, maybe we're practice directors, you know, or maybe we are just not just there's no such thing as just, but maybe we're in clinical practice, you know, supporting our clients and our patients and consumers and the people that we work alongside. So if we're not taking great care of ourselves, and part of that is understanding our edges and our tendencies, our patterns, whether we call them habits are not well, that's up to you. But the ways in which we show up, you know, in supervision, we can have that held for us. And I just really appreciate you naming that. It's a bit of a pity, the name in and of itself, kind of connotates hierarchical power over and in the supervision, more reflective style of supervision spaces that I've been involved in, you know, it's so much more collaborative, there is a sense of really coming together in the service of our practice and our growth and our own learning as well.
So it's not just about case consultation, it's also about understanding our own reactions, our own ingrained habits of maybe dietitian, fixing, and all this stuff that we get so reflexive about. But, you know, in this conversation, I do want to pause and give a huge big shout out to Tara McGregor, who has really spearheaded supervision in Australia. So if anybody's interested in you know, what Tara has really built, you know, myself and a handful of others are part of the, I guess, the support team, but you know, dietitian, supervision resources Australia, or dsra.com.au. If you're looking for more kind of information about supervision that I just want to give a really, really big shout out to Tara, who has just done such incredible work in this space, and has really spearheaded this work in Australia.
Laura Jean 8:56
Excellent. So thanks for that Fi. I'll drop Tara's details in the show notes, so anyone can connect and find out more about their great work. And it's just such a great conversation that you and Tara and everyone has been involved in. Because I think that breaking down that whole idea and it's such a shame that so many of the words we use have been overtaken by the values of the system that we're part of you know, that supremacy hierarchical stuff. And it's sometimes tempting to throw the words out and find new words. It does feel like a bit of an uphill battle when you are trying to re-envisage it and re-imagine it for people and with people. So I do appreciate all of the hard work that you are doing around that because it's such an essential piece, the supervision, because we deal with a lot and we hold a lot, particularly for people working in this non diet space where you are also challenging, you're working with people to challenge the systems while challenging the systems and the values of a whole profession, you know, that you're holding inside yourself. So it gets complex. And so having that space is so essential.
Fiona Sutherland 10:01
Yeah, spot on spot on, you know, we're doing some, some unlearning, and some, decolonizing within ourselves and aiming to do the same, in the spaces in the professional spaces that we all move and you know, let alone more broadly culturally goodness me, you know, so there's a lot there that were trying to juggle and deal with, and, you know, multiple layers of things. So, supervision and shared collaborative spaces are just absolutely priceless in terms of how we can support each other and support ourselves in doing this work, you know, to our best capacity, whatever that means for us at any one time.
Laura Jean 10:39
Beyond the stereotype of ‘dietitian’
Yeah, definitely. And I think too, for me, it's an opportunity for us to actually turn our values towards ourselves, you know, the values that we probably show up with when we're working with the humans we work with, and when we're holding space to actually access those spaces for ourselves, because often as helping and health professionals, we aren't so great at taking care of ourselves. And so I think supervision is a really great way to do that. And at the same time, it's changing our profession, it's changing that whole idea of us, that we've got all the answer, we're experts and all and also that we're not humans, when we come into the room, I think by having supervision, we acknowledge that, yes, we are humans, too. We don't have this sort of perfect different professional persona or, or person that we are, and that stuff does come into the room with us and stuff leaves the room with us.
Fiona Sutherland 11:35
Yeah, I really appreciate you naming that in aiming to investigate and become really curious and explore this within ourselves that actually, keeping the bigger picture in mind as we're aiming to make shifts within our profession, and then also much more strongly, culturally, so within healthcare culture, and then also more broad culture as well. So I appreciate you just really naming that we might sometimes feel and sometimes we are, you know, small cogs in a big system, but that changes only happen when small cogs actually shift and shift together as well. So that we can be part of a much bigger shift in how dietitians are treated, how we treat each other, and then what that means in terms of access to care, in terms of broader food, eating, and body conversations, and ultimately, you know, what this means in terms of body liberation, which is something that, you know, I know, you and I speak a lot about, our immediate colleagues speak a lot about, but these are conversations that are just really now emerging within dietetics spaces.
And, you know, we might, we may be ostensibly small cogs in a big system, but I really believe and I have seen the evidence that we can really start to make these changes when we are reframing and renaming who we are, what we do and what we can contribute. So an example of this might be that I personally feel very, very strongly that when we can shift towards naming dietetics as a counselling profession, I think this really more strongly positions us away from fixing and educating and the quote unquote, management of food eating and bodies, and more positions us truly alongside people in a collaborative fashion where we're able to accompany, I really love that word, accompany people along their journey, along their pathway, and allows other people to really stay in charge and to and to be a lot more autonomous and choice-ful in their decision making, rather than us, you know, accidentally sometimes finding ourselves in this hierarchical power over position where people expect us to tell them what to do. And, and we might sometimes find ourselves, you know, putting our bossy bootson, and, you know, you're finding ourselves in that power over position, which is, it's not going to make the shifts unfortunately, in the direction of body liberation. So yeah, I mean, gosh, this is such a big conversation, right?
Laura Jean 14:30
Absolutely. Yeah. And there's so much in there from what you shared, and I think there's a few things that like, just jumped out at me as you were sharing one piece about like reimagining or redefining what dietitians can be, the possibilities of what a dietitian could be, because I think there are definitely some roles in being a dietitian where it is, I still don't think it needs to be hierarchical, but where it is a little bit more, you know, prescriptive is probably not the right word..
Fiona Sutherland 14:57
educative?
Laura Jean 14:58
Yeah, educative and also I'm just thinking about a dietitian working in ICU, calculating feeds and stuff like that. And, and that is just as valid a role as a dietitian and important role as a dietitian, as the dietitian that accompanies, I do love that word too, accompanies humans through their experience and navigating of the world. And I think it's about using more words and really broadening up that label. Like, I feel like there's this tendency, and it's a cultural, it's that hierarchical supremacy culture value of trying to create groups and narrow everything down to these really tiny labels. And sometimes we go along with that, because of the I don't know, the proximity to power or whatever it comes with that. And I feel like that's what's happening in dietetics, where the nuance and the spread of possibilities of what a dietitian can be has been sacrificed, and probably parallels how, you know, we're asked to sacrifice parts of our humanity for this kind of like, narrowing of how we are seen and how we even label ourselves. And I love that opportunity, or the thoughts you were having there of how we can consider where else. Yeah, that full scope, that full spectrum of what a dietitian can be?
Fiona Sutherland 16:10
Scope of practice as dietitians
Yes, yes, absolutely. And I love the way that you just dropped the word scope there just in that last sentence, because, you know, this was a conversation that we had started previously around how we regard what is named as quote unquote, scope of practice and how this incites such fear in dietitians, it's like, oh, I don't want to have that conversation. I don't want to ask that question, Should I be really talking about this with this person in front of me, and we are very fearful around, defining or staying within these bounds that have been handed to us as what is named as what a dietitian does or what we are allowed to do. And, you know, this is very driven, I believe, by niceness and perfectionism, both of which loom large in our profession, for sure. So I'm super curious about your thoughts on on scope of practice, and what you notice.
Laura Jean 17:08
I would agree, I think there's that perfectionism, which I think stems from, if we can narrow down that idea of what we do, then we can get it right, you know, we keep it safe. And I think the other piece is that sense of safety and certainty. And I feel like we as a profession have sacrificed those possibilities, or we're kind of like, limited some of the possibilities of what dietitians can be and the spaces we can work in, in exchange for more certainty in exchange for a feeling of safety. Within that, you know, expert hat/educator/problem solver, those kinds of pieces, because it's easier to wrap kind of like boundaries, or really probably more accurately rules around that kind of role than it is if we're the accompanier or if we're the support person, if we are in that more kind of counselling space. So yeah, I think, because I would completely agree because dietetics as a profession are a general kind of personality characteristic, which is, of course, a characteristic of supremacy culture, that perfectionism piece comes in, then, if we want to be perfect, then, you know, we feel like we have to have that more control. And so we kind of want that scope we want, 'just tell me what to do or what I can't do' and yeah, dietitians get really concerned.
And I think you're right too around the kind of niceness and I know you've talked, and you've continued to talk a lot about the nuance between niceness and kindness, which I think is a really important conversation. And, just that one thing I was sort of thinking about, because I knew we were going to kind of probably get to this as we chatted today is that whole idea of doing harm, like we sort of we grab for scope to stop us, under the auspice of so we don't do harm, but I think actually when we're grabbing for it is to keep ourselves safe and to keep ourselves comfortable.
Fiona Sutherland 19:01
I agree so much. You know, I've been thinking about this quite a lot, you know, over a length of time and by saying that I don't mean to suggest that I'm any closer to figuring this out, by the way, but I have had some really interesting conversations with people, including yourself about how this arises in us and there is certainly a tendency to lean towards what is known. What is certain, you know, evidence based practice and so forth. But I really appreciate you naming that this comes at a cost and what it costs us is really being able to lean into our own humanity, our own sense of uncertainty, and that you know, being fully human alongside other full humans means that we have to recognise perhaps parts of ourselves which are uncomfortable, which might not be showing up in ways that we might wish. It is really common amongst dietitians and health professionals as a whole, that we too have experienced trauma. Many people have experienced marginalisation and chronic stress and perhaps poverty and disempowerment in various ways. So not just maybe a financial poverty but maybe emotional psychological poverty in it's many ways.
So, I think there is this sense of disconnection, and may I even say, maybe avoidance, maybe active avoidance of those parts of ourselves that when we kind of disconnect from them, or when we disown them, we can kind of ignore that they're there. But of course, as our human experience often does, it can often pop up in inopportune moments, I guess, you know, particularly when we're under pressure when we're under stress. Or when where we find ourselves in complex situations, and where we're wondering, why on earth do I feel so burnt out? Or why do I feel like this? Why can't I quote unquote, cope, like everybody else seems to be able to? So it's a really interesting, these are really interesting kind of explorations, which bring us I think, or when we kind of turn our curiosity dial up to 11 out of 10, then when we come back to it, it's about, how do I feel honestly, about not knowing, how do I feel about uncertainty in general, how do I feel about my own imperfections, and what people think and all those edges, which bring us right up close and personal to maybe the parts of us, the parts in us that feel a little bit less comfortable, that feel a little less certain, that don't feel as pretty don't feel as well put together as we might like to show to the world. So I think, you know, we've we've done a pretty decent job over the years, and certainly as a broad perfection profession, of showing a particular face to the world of what a dietitian does, what we look like what we can do.
And unfortunately, you know, it's 2023, by the time that this podcast is released, and now I think we're realising that we've done ourselves a disservice that actually in showing this particular face of dietetics, to the world, that people do expect us to deliver a particular service in a particular way that now has kind of bound us into a corner now we're expected to show up in particular ways which are not how our profession really wants to reflect itself. So, we've got a bit of work to do in terms of unlearning, relearning, unpacking, repacking. And it's going to require each and every one of us to really dig in and to get willing to get messy, like really messy.
Laura Jean 23:15
Are dietitians going where we want to go? How did we get here?
Messy, I like it, I think that that is definitely a piece just getting uncomfortable. And I think when you were saying that, then it just made me think, you know, about how we've kind of created this outward, I suppose, way of being or way of being seen. And one, it has backed us into a corner as humans, we have to kind of sacrifice our humanity. But then also, I feel like, it hasn't taken us where we're perhaps at a professional level, not as individuals, but as a profession, we thought it was going to, like, I feel like there was all there has been in the past, you know, this real push to be, quote, unquote, professional, the professionals, quote, unquote, the experts. And while I feel like that the message was there to try and get us trust and status and all those pieces. Its kind of feels to me like the exact opposite, like what you said that because then as individuals, we don't feel like we're meeting the so called standards. And then also at a professional level, people aren't necessarily turning to dietitians for their advice and information. And a lot of dietitians have a lot of issues with that. And so it's almost like we've sacrificed these parts of our humanity - sacrificing the nuance, the possibilities, and it hasn't really taken us where we thought and not we, as in you and me necessarily or you listener, but like at a profession level, where we thought it was going to or where, and we see this often with many things where the cultural norms said it would. similarly like parallel when we work with humans around their bodies and their relationship with food. That culture tells and sells them a message sacrifice these parts of your humanity and he's the reward. And it doesn't get them where they want to go. I think same same.
Fiona Sutherland 25:05
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's so true. I think that if we kind of look through the lens of the history of dietetics, and I'm just going to look at more, you know, I just might step through a little bit of the recent history. A big question that people have been asking for a couple of years is, how the heck did we get here as being seen as the quote unquote, experts on pretty much everything associated with food eating and bodies, and particularly as experts on things like weight control, and weight management, and all of those things that have really painted us into a corner, a really not very safe corner, a pretty tenuous corner, especially as you know, more and more and more research has emerged that this is a fool's errand that actually the pursuit of weight loss is leading to more psychological, physical and social harms. And it's a bit like, hashtag awkward, because we hung our hat on this for so long. And so where this is taking me is, I've had a real think about this. And look, I don't propose to have the answers on this, but just see how this feels to you, Laura.
Okay, so I'll use you as my little recipient of this theory here. I feel like a lot of the, you know, if we think about, you know, the advent of Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig and a lot of the pursuit of weight loss, the diet companies and so forth, they kind of enjoyed a big uptick in maybe the kind of the 60s 70s, and more and yet, even more so in the 1980s, let's just say. And if we think about where dietitians are positioned in the health care hierarchy, we unfortunately don't really enjoy a high position on the ladder of power. And so I think in the pursuit of power, or the proximity to power, I think what what the attempt to do was to jump on the kind of the the weight loss, the weight control bandwagon back in the kind of the, maybe the 1980s. And then at the same time, what we noticed is the emergence of the media dietitian. And so at the same time, we were noticing more dietitians, in magazines, in newspapers, and on TV, talking about food eating, and mostly talking about weight control. And so a lot of what the public was hearing and seeing from dietitians was all about weight. And usually something to do with vegetables, like it was always like pictures of vegetables and recipes with vegetables, and it was in that Apple, don't forget that, Oh, my God, with the tape measure around it, or just please like, please, that needs to stay back in the 1980s, where it belongs, along with all the other shitty diet advice. So I think what happened is it's this confluence of factors, the kind of uptick in 'O' related panic, the emergence of the media dietitian and then dietetics as a whole profession, kind of wanting to have more proximity to power. And so I think this kind of happened in the 1980s, the 1990s, and which is where we've kind of found ourselves trying to undo this big attempt at trying to be more important. You know, we've all seen T shirts and posters, trust me, I'm a dietitian. And I think to myself, part lays like, trust is something that we earn, through developing an ongoing relationship and sense of safety and trust with people, we don't earn trust by asking for it or demanding it worse still, you know, so I think what's happened is that we've kind of built this monster castle for ourselves, only to realise that we've set up camp in it and wanting to evict ourselves from the castle that we've built. So that's a very long kind of winded hypothesis for how I think we've got here and then also what contributes to the part of our previous conversation, which is part of fear of stepping out of our zone, stepping out of our scope of practice. I think that, you know, this is all entwined, we're trying to reinvent and re emerge as something new, but we're still living, we're still kind of, we've still got a room in the castle that we're trying to evict ourselves from and finding ourselves looking for a new a new home and wandering the streets a little bit, so to speak.
Laura Jean 29:46
Yes. Or maybe maybe trying to, you know, break fertile ground in the garden, that's where I like to hangout.
Fiona Sutherland 29:52
Thank you very much. Yes, I love that.
Laura Jean 29:54
I think. Yeah, I think that rings true, I love that hypothesis because it kind of goes nicely with one of my hypothesis is around kind of how we got here too, because I think towards that, like late 60s 70s, that one of the roots of dietetics is around food and home ec and I think with the devaluing of that at a cultural level around, you know, cooking and that role, there was that, and, you know, and I'm definitely, I love that wave of feminism. And all that it did, and I'm not saying that that caused this, but I think with that happened in parallel, the dietitians who may be sort of saw that as a way to or that other people at that time to grab more power through the science route, but also to really distance ourselves from the food piece from the relating with food from the connection to food, and from that part of our dietetics roots. And I feel like, now we look back and think, oh, yeah, all that stuff, that food connection, the role of food, you know, for so long we saw even now you see those, those posts that come up around where people are, like, you know, what a, what an insult to get associated with being dietary, right, like so that real grabbing for those rungs higher up on the ladder to be more in the science closer to the the top of that hierarchy, to distance ourselves from actually the food piece and disconnecting food from this, creating this whole idea of the science of food and the science of eating and the science of weight. You know, weight manipulation? I would say rather than weight loss, but weight, weight trauma, probably even more more accuratley. And then yeah, then it's like, yeah, we're in this house now. And it's like some of us want to get get out and get in the garden. Some people want to stay in there, though. So there's there's that as well. But
Fiona Sutherland 31:51
yeah, and some people want to redecorate, right? Some people are like, oh, let's just chuck IKEA in here. Cool. Cool. You know? Where are the instructions? Where's my? What'd he call it? Yeah, put in a flat flat packs, flat packs? Is anybody, like who's going to help me can't do this on my own? And other people are like, get me the eff out of here. You know, so. So every, there are, of course, quite a few different ideas about, you know, how we move forward?
Laura Jean 32:20
Yes, and I think that there's that, what you prefaced with is that no one has the answers. And we don't have to, but maybe we can have some conversations, some more conversations, some bigger scope conversations at a professional level, without it feeling like a threat. With it being curiosity and the potential for those possibilities that no one has to actually lose out if we broaden the possibility of what a dietitian can be. We don't lose power. Because, you know, in case, the people who maybe who feel that that way, can't see is that doing this didn't get us where people thought it was going to anyway. So why don't we just imagine a whole new place that we could go?
Fiona Sutherland 33:01
Yeah, yeah, I look, I so agree at some, and there are admittedly, you know, some really amazing people really agitating for shift at really important levels, like, where change can actually happened. So I just want to acknowledge that there are some important conversations happening. But as always, especially with large professions and large organisations, it feels like snail's pace sometimes. You know, whereas, innovators and entrepreneurs like yourself, for example, you know, that you're able to have a voice in a way that you want to and start to elevate conversations and to start collaborations, which can really, make waves and really start the ball rolling that doesn't rely on that top down hierarchical tick of the box that says, Yes, that's good enough. That's correct. That's, you know, quote, unquote, evidence based, or all those things that we tend to hang our hat on that week. change can happen in a million different ways, and can often happen from conversations being had amongst community members who are willing to take a risk, and who are willing to lean into the uncertainty of who we can become, and how we can kind of position ourselves so that we're not trying to, we're not trying to knock people off a ladder at all, we're trying to more exist side by side, in our full humanity and to recognise that that looks and feels different for different people, depending on the degree of privilege that we have in the world, but that in uplifting others and notably those who are more marginalised, that it actually makes us all stronger. It makes us all more powerful. It makes us all be able to have a voice which is meaningful and creative and to make real difference in the world, so I don't know, that was a little bit high horse, so I'm just gonna get off, release the reins and hop off the horse.
Laura Jean 35:10
Opportunities for change in dietetics
No, fair enough. And I think inside that is that piece of often we're looking for the answer to how do we bring people up, if we're using that ladder analogy, it's like how does everyone get up further, but I think we just need to get off the ladder and create those spaces where we are collaborating, like you said, where we're interacting, but where we're relating with our full humanity, which back to sort of the start of our conversation, which is where supervision really gives us that space to explore that and get curious at that down at our own level, while those other conversations are happening at other levels, depending on people's resources and access to those conversations, but that we can do it from those million different places. And in fact, we have to like if we want change, you know if we're sitting here as individual dieticians waiting for things to change to get better, we're going to be waiting a while, then again we're just outsourcing that sense of our own personal responsibility, our own sort of responsibility. Similarly, like, that's what the system wants us to do right, to think that we can't make a difference that we can't, as a minimum, we can make a difference to our lives and to the lives of the humans that we interact with through our work. Yeah, absolutely.
Fiona Sutherland 36:27
I love that, you know, we can start with what is available to us, and what is accessible to us. And those small ripples do become waves I really do in my career lifetime, and probably you have experienced similarly, Laura, that I have noticed big changes in the way that dietitians show up in the world and how we are willing to really press the edges and to take some thoughtful risks, shall we say, and to really be more expansive, and how we describe who we are, what we do, and what our roles are. And a lot of that comes down to how we define the relationships in which we're building with each other as dietitians and with our clients and community groups as well. So I'm noticing a huge uptick in people's curiosity in what they are noticing in themselves. And when we can, I mean, to be really specific about that, how,a fixing reflex shows up in myself, and how I can develop some skillfulness. around that, so that I can show up with my clients, with my family members, even and my colleagues from a place of humility, from thoughtfulness. And so that we're noticing our own experiences a lot more. So, you know, that kind of more relational style is something that I'm really noticing people are becoming interested in. It's super, it's actually really exciting, to be honest.
Laura Jean 37:56
Yeah, I would agree. Because like, you know, sort of, I think you're, you're in the field a few years ahead of me, but we're similar kind of that round that 20 years space, and it feels slow when you're in it, but when you look back and see all of the changes, and just the different conversations that we're having, and the spaces that are becoming available for those conversations it's so heartening to see. And I think that people are definitely getting more curious, which is so great, because that's what we need, you know, first comes that curiosity and awareness before we can do anything differently, right, we have to know what's going on. So I think that that is shifting. And you talked to there too, about that relationship relating piece. And I think that probably links a bit to the scope stuff is because dietitians can often feel like, there's this whole idea of, boundaries and rules around relating with the humans we work with. There's historical stuff around relating to colleagues and things like that. But where are you at with that at the moment around the relating piece? How that shows up? Where do you think there's opportunities for us as a profession or as individuals? Or what do you think we need to maybe get more, I'm going to use the word better, but not better as in fixing ourselves, but where we maybe need to hone our skills or get more curious in that space?
Fiona Sutherland 39:22
Bringing more relating into our work
Hmm. Well, I have observed over the past, say, during my career over the past 20 years that we've started to work pretty closely with therapists and I think this has been inspiring for us as dietitians. You know, whether we're working with counsellors, psychologists, social workers, any kind of mental health professionals and some GPS as well of course, our you know, specialists in mental health and counselling. And I think what this has done is it's just, it's really piqued our curiosity because we've noticed that it's a bit of a Venn diagram, there are things that therapist, I'm just going to use that as a catch all, for all people from the mental health field, shall we say, you know, there is a bit of a Venn diagram when it comes to people's relationships with food eating, and body image, and so forth. And that it doesn't need to be a competition, it doesn't need to be, this is strictly my role and strictly yours, of course, there are some things that would definitely be more our job, definitely things that would be more a therapists job, but actually, there's a lot that overlaps as well. And in being exposed to a lot more of the kind of therapeutic ideas and modalities and so forth, I think, we have become very curious about where we sit in here, and how we can develop counselling skills, and interpersonal and relational skills, where we can be of most help and support to our clients and to ourselves as well. Whilst also maintaining a sense of what is ours to address or to work with.
So one example might be, I mean, in a very simplistic way I talk about it, awareness versus focus. So for example, being trauma informed or trauma aware, as you know, Laura, it doesn't mean that we focus on trauma, or being relationally aware, or therapeutically aware, means that we understand maybe interpersonal dynamics, we understand concepts such as transference and countertransference. And, and, you know, the complexities that can arise with boundaries, and, and so forth. But that were therapists might use the relationship and relational dynamics as part of the therapy itself, having an awareness about in what shows up for us in terms of countertransference, which is what we might be sensing in us as a result of what the client brings, that can offer us incredibly rich and valuable information in the service of the food eating and body image work that we might be doing with people. So having an awareness and being informed does not make us a therapist, what it does is it makes us a dietitian who is interested in and is aware of dynamics, which can be in service of the dietetic work that we're doing. So, I think what often happens here is that when we when some of the, you know, white supremacist idea about, there's one right way, and perfectionism, and avoiding getting into trouble and all this kind of stuff, when that comes into play, I think that's what trips us up. Whereas when we can maintain a sense of humility and curiosity about our experiences, and that of others, I think just, it really sets us up in good stead to be able to do our work really well, alongside, some really good supervision, and really allows us to kind of stretch our edges and, and, I don't know, be a bit more expansive in our work, which is, for many of us, it's a lot more exciting to be expansive, rather than reductive. So, yeah, that's kind of what I think about that.
Laura Jean 43:30
Yeah, I think that it's just something that it opens up that expansion from, the space we can hold for the humans we work with, and what I was sort of thinking as you were sharing is it really creates for ourselves as well. So you know, one of the things that often happens, dietitians leave the field in droves, really great dietitians because of that feeling of maybe they're getting it wrong or not doing it right, because of all those feelings that come up or because of that relating stuff. And we're sort of trained not to acknowledge it, we're trained so that there's almost that, because we're not given space, or tools or support about how to hold it, or how to see it as a tool or an instrument through which we can facilitate, you know, that relating to food and body that then it's like, what do I do with this stuff, and dietitians are holding it or pushing it away or doing whatever with it, but it's there, right? Whether we acknowledge it or not, it's happening, stuffs happening in the relating, and even if we're not using it as a tool, a focus tool like a therapist would, there's still stuff going on in that relationship between us and the humans we work with for them even as a minimum, you know, even if we've got our professional hat on and we're shutting ourselves down. But then what that often leads to is dietitians just feeling really crap about how they are showing up or what they're taking home from those spaces.
So yes, that was what I was just sort of thinking as you were sharing because I feel like, by what acknowledging it and also having the supervision space, but also some skills or just like context or that humility, a place to ground in with it or a place to kind of to put it, you know, some thought about where to put it or what to do with it, or how to actually just acknowledge that it's there, that it's in sometimes that what is ours and what isn't ours, but I feel like that would go a long way to some of the stuff we see around burnout, moral injury, and also around dietitians, feeling like dissatisfaction from the work they do
Fiona Sutherland 45:34
Yep, 100% because what contributes so much to things like burnout and moral injury and experiences in that zone, are feeling like we're not doing a good enough job ofrfeeling like we're doing it wrong, like we're messing up, like we're scared of getting it wrong, or like we can never do enough. And that is a recipe for heading to burnoutville for sure. And instead of that, when we can, as you say, develop some skillfulness around that, it doesn't mean that we're going to always quote unquote, get it right, it doesn't always mean that we're not going to feel overwhelmed at times or feeling like, oh, this is just way too much. But when we have an awareness of and attunement to our own nervous system responses, to our own autonomic nervous system, that biological part of us that will respond under threat, in times of danger, and we'll always want to be seeking safety. when we can be aware of that part of us that does exist, whether we like it or not, of course, then we can be more skillful in the way that we show up, we can take better care of ourselves, we can set better boundaries, we can have more of an idea about what is okay for us, what's not okay. And better at communicating what it is that we need in order to show up, doing the best that we can to help, however that looks, remembering that sometimes the best that that we can do is actually very, very different from day to day, week to week, month to month and year to year. But I think that when we can lean into the idea that we too, are human working alongside humans, and become curious about our own experiences, It just strengthens all of us together.
Laura Jean 47:29
Beyond doing our best and actually taking care of ourselves
Absolutely. And also there's that tendency of using we can we do our best as a way to kind of hold space, or create space for people to feel that we don't have to be perfect, we can just do our best, but then also too I feel like we don't always have to do our best.
Fiona Sutherland 47:45
Yes. Oh, my God, I love that.
Laura Jean 47:46
Sometimes it's enough to show up, you know. And when you were sharing there, like you said it there that what we're often trying to go after is to get rid of the feeling or to change it. But what you were saying in there is the piece that I have to come back to too is that it's less about that and more about taking care of ourselves in whatever comes up for us, whatever happens in those relating opportunities relating with the humans or relating with ourselves, is that we have the space to take care of ourselves. So then we can hold that space of care for others.
Fiona Sutherland 48:18
yeah, absolutely. And, you know, because where we are positioned hierarchically, and because historically, and still to the present day, we are mostly a kind of a cis het white, female dominated profession, you know, we are then kind of, at the whim of all of the socio cultural effects of being part of that group and how that kind of infiltrates our profession, including our capacity and willingness to take care of ourselves. So we are much more likely to take care of others ahead of ourselves when we're going to be kind of reenacting a lot of the socio cultural patterns that we have been kind of taught and bred into us throughout our training as well. So it's never too late to unlearn some of that stuff. And being in community and in collaboration with other dietitians is, I believe, is the way to go when you can see other people who are pressing their edges, when you can see other people who are taking good care of themselves, whatever that means. And I really appreciate you saying sometimes we don't always have to do our best because really doing our best is, we can just feel the supremacist perfectionism, even in that term, you know, it's not really what it's like doing our best meant, you know, showing up in a particular way there are exceptions to that, there are conditions on that. So when we shed those ideas and see other people shedding them, then I think it fosters a lot of courage in our communities. And that's something that we really, really need.
Laura Jean 50:11
Yeah, absolutely. I think that it gives us the opportunity to see ourselves and that shared common humanity, you know, that piece from self compassion, which is so important. And yeah, that best thing I know that few weeks ago, or months, whatever, you know, there was, there was a meme going around. If you have 40%, and you gave 40%, then you gave 100%. But I was like thinking, but if I have 40% and I only want to give 20, then that's what I might choose to do that. We don't have to give everything that we have, you know, we can give what works. One of my core values is around resources. And it's actually around being really mindful of how me as a resource and how I use my time and energy, and I won't always give 100% of what I've got available to certain things because I still need energy and resources for other things. So yes, I have a little gripe, but I like to challenge that idea of giving our best and when it comes up, because we don't have to, we don't owe anyone our best.
Fiona Sutherland 51:07
Yes, well, I'm going to tuck that away in my back pocket. Laura, thank you very much for that, that is perfect for this time of year.
Laura Jean 51:13
Yes, absolutely. Yes. And I know that you are, I'd be preaching to the converted around it. But I feel like this is where our values are such an important instrument, you know, when we're thinking about the things that you mentioned in there around those cultural and social programming, which is really like the programming to take on the cultural values. And those social values is where when we are doing that unlearning it's just where the role of our values, our own values, really comes into their own right, like really shine, because you can kind of feel a bit lost, I suppose when you're thinking I don't want to do that. But then sometimes I feel we spend so much time talking about what we don't want to do, particularly as non diet anti diet dietitian, so we don't want that stuff, right. So what do we want? What are our values that we want to take forward? I know you love values, too. But yeah, I feel like that's, to just put in another plug for values, like that's where we can really use our values as a space to ground in, and like launch off from
Fiona Sutherland 52:12
Values as a foundation through it all
Yeah, 100% it gives us the foundation from which we can take consistent, caring, loving actions towards ourselves and others in really meaningful ways. So we can build a practice, a business. And by practice, I don't just mean a physical clinical practice, I also mean personal practices, a series of ways of being where we are treating ourselves with such kindness and treating other people with kindness as well. And kindness doesn't always look like being lovely and nice. And rose coloured glasses. Kindness actually means things like, drawing boundaries and saying yes, when we want to say yes and say no, when we want to say no, and being really true to ourselves. So I think when we can lay that foundation, I think about it like a house, you know, when we can lay our foundation and have that concrete slab really, really well. Really well set there only then can we build the rest of the house. We don't want to be decorating and putting in the rugs and the carpet and the window furnishings before we've laid our concrete slab.
Laura Jean 53:19
Yes, I think of it because I love my garden of like the root system of a plant, you know, that's the roots going down. And some plants like bamboo spend three years three to five years growing a root system before they even put the first shoot above the surface. And I I kind of think if it similarly as that foundation.
Fiona Sutherland 53:38
Oh, I love that so much. I did not know that about bamboo. Thank you very much Laura.
Laura Jean 53:42
It's amazing. I was like oh my gosh, that's just like a perfect analogy for values because you can spend that time building your strong foundation of your root system of your values, then you can grow, you can flourish, you can reach up to the sky and look like you know you're you're you're so vigorous. You know bamboo has this idea, this reputation, people often think of bamboo, this vigorous thing that takes over. But it can do that because it spends so much time building its foundation, in this case values.
Fiona Sutherland 54:09
No, I love it. Thank you.
Laura Jean 54:12
Kindness vs niceness
But can we just quickly go back because you mentioned that their kindness and niceness. So I've seen you talk about this and possibly some of the people listening in have too but share with us the nuance there, because I think that not everyone has heard it. And particularly if you've been socialised as a woman, or girl that you definitely have been encouraged to think of them as the same word.
Fiona Sutherland 54:35
Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for pausing and stopping at this one. It's one of the concepts and ideas that I keep coming back to in my work, and in my life as well is you know, I will often ask myself, Am I being nice? Or am I being kind and sometimes it can be a little bit of both. But as you say, for those of us who've been socialised as female or assigned female at birth, niceness is something that is expected of us in the service of other people's comfort. So when we are being nice, often we will put aside or sacrifice our own needs, our own voice, what we want to say and do and how we want to show up in the world. And this is something that starts remarkably and disturbingly young, very, very young, and gets embedded. Well, I think, although I mean, it could be embedded in lots of different ways. But really, it circles around the idea of what will people think so and it kind of points us to, we want people to think well of us, we want people to think good things and positive things about us. Because that will make our life easier and better and more ostensibly, there's some of that that can be true 100%. However, at what cost. niceness really costs us in so many ways, whereas where kindness has a contrast with niceness in that kindness really encourages us and invites us back into ourselves, and to think about what is going to serve us and others as well. Because if we are community oriented people, then we don't just have ourselves in mind, we also have our communities in mind, whether whether whether we name our communities, however broad we name, we name that as and that and that kindness is really much more of an expansive idea, but has our own well being front of mind.
So that doesn't mean that our own well being eclipses that of others, but it means that we see ourselves as, as important as we do other people. And in that way, you know, we're able to come back and connect with our values, connect with what matters, and connect with our needs at any one point in time. And the good thing about what I think about kindness, is that we can also change our mind at any time. So just because I said yes to this particular thing at this particular time doesn't mean I'm going to say yes, again, it means that I can be really responsive to what capacity I have, what will meet my needs, what's going to serve me and my communities all at the same time. So niceness can be very kind of built into our DNA, sometimes, and definitely can be acculturated into us. Whereas kindness often needs to be something that is built a little differently. Alongside the dismantling of niceness, we have something else to build, which has ourselves and our own well being in mind as well. So yeah, that's a little bit of the difference.
Laura Jean 57:59
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Because I know I'd heard it, I have heard it, heard you talk about it. And I love the nuance that you bring to it. But I feel like that was just something really important to just kind of wrap a few more words around for anyone who maybe hasn't seen it or who is still kind of decoupling from that idea of being the good girl or the good dietitian. And, that doesn't mean because we think in binaries, then if you're not good, right? So what are you, then, but when we're bringing that nuance to it and thinking of being kind, so that it's actually I really like it, because it gives us another another space to kind of place ourselves or place our actions that doesn't have to be the opposite of that it actually kind of sits adjacent to our idea of nice, but it's values defined definition, like versus the niceness, which is that external cultural, social values of how we show up, whereas kindness tends to feel to me more that directed by our own values, our own personal values.
Fiona Sutherland 59:04
Yeah, absolutely. Look, I think the other thing that I that might be really important for us to mention here is that people pleasing and niceness can actually be really well intentioned attempts at safety seeking as well. So, you know, there are definitely situations where in the service of literally our own safety, we might have to defer to the whims of other people or to, you know, what other people say or do or think or things like that. So I just really want to recognise that, you know, the more privilege we have, the more we can be, Oh, no more niceness for me, you know, whereas when we have or if we have experienced trauma, chronic stress, marginalisation and oppression, that you know people pleasing has literally sometimes been a survival and safety seeking mechanism. So i want to acknowledge that? Oh, goodness, you know that this is not necessarily equitably available to all people in all situations at all times. And that being really gentle with ourselves around our own safety seeking, especially if that has started really young. I just urge people to be just really kind and gentle with ourselves as were kind of, you know, stretching our edges around this topic.
Laura Jean 1:00:26
Thank you for naming that. And for making sure we didn't gloss over that piece, it's so important to remember that people who are under resourced, whether that be your physical resources in a moment, or those cultural social under resourcing that happens for groups of humans that, yes not everything's available to everyone at the same equitable amount, and also just at the same time even from that day to day, what could be there as far as the energy you might have to show up or not? And also, from a safety point of view. So it's, really important, I think, for us to keep that in mind. And to name it and to continue and it doesn't have to be something that holds those of us thatdo have privilege around it, that that's that's okay, to wrap words around it. And to just acknowledge that, that doesn't mean that we have to stop talking about it. But I think it's, um, yes, it's a really important piece to name because not everything's available to everyone to do things differently or to changewhether it be that safety and trauma aspect or that cultural social, under resourcing. So thank you for naming that.
Fiona Sutherland 1:01:41
Yeah, you're welcome.
Laura Jean 1:01:42
Excellent. Well, this has been such a great conversation. And I know that we could continue talking for a long time. So perhaps we'll do it a second part in the future. And I'm just thinking, again, as I noticed the time one of the questions that I often ask, or one of my favourite quotes is that 'we're planting seeds for a forest we may never get to spend time in'. It's kind of like a quote, but also something that helps me to kind of ground myself back in what we're up to. And so with that in mind, what is a seed or seeds that you would like to plant? For those listening or just out into the world? Like, what are you on a mission to plant? Well, actually, no, sorry, I'm going to rephrase myself, I'm not going to use the word mission, because that's actually like war term. What are you wanting to plant? What's your desire to plan?
Fiona Sutherland 1:02:36
Planting seeds
Let me have a think, my greatest wish, in the context of this conversation, which let's let's talk about, you know, my colleagues. So my greatest wish for my colleagues and our profession, is that we are more courageous and we're more expansive in our practice, and are willing to have conversations that might be uncomfortable but that are in the service of our growth and learning. So that's, I think, why I love supervision so much is because this is what I see. And this is what I feel I've observed it in myself. I observe it in others. And so I think that's why I'm so passionate about it is because I feel like supervision is like the garden bed or it's like the field or whatever kind of metaphor we want to use. It feels like it's the place where the seeds are not only planted but where they are allowed to grow. Yeah, so thank you for asking that question. At first, I was a little bit like, oh my gosh, what do I most wish and then it seemed to come kind of easily. So there you go. That's, that's my wish.
Laura Jean 1:03:56
And it doesn't have to be your most wish it could just be one of the seeds you want to plant one that you're passionate about planting. But I liked that it came to you anyway. Yes, yes. Well, thanks so much Fi for your time, for your insight, for all of the work that you do. And the conversations that you start, I truly appreciate you and the space you hold in our profession. If other people would like to connect, if they aren't already connected with you or following along with the work that you do, where are some great places to either connect or just kind of absorb your you-ness
Fiona Sutherland 1:04:32
Connect with Fiona
My you-ness, I love that thank you, my me-ness. Okay, so my website is the mindful dietitian.com.au So there you can find information about courses and training including a five part series on called being in relationship which is kicking off at the end of January 2023 but will be available as a as an evergreen online course for any dietitians who are interested And you can find information there about supervision as well. And for people who are on Instagram, my instagram handle is the dot, mindful dietitian, just remembering that for those of you who are not dietitians that dietitian is spelt with a, d.i.e.TITI.n. So unfortunately, about maybe six months ago, my relatively large account, the mindful dietitian, was unfortunately broken into and hacked, which was very upsetting in lots of ways. So I literally had to start my account again. And you know what, I've really actually enjoyed the process once I got over the grief of the loss of that account and stopped kind of grasping for whatever that meant to me. I've actually really enjoyed rebuilding this community and finding maybe a new space and new voice for myself. So those are the two spaces that I move most in and then there is the closed Facebook group, the mindful dietitian, where health professionals from lots of different sectors are joined to have some really fun conversations. So if you are, if you identify as a weight inclusive, health professional, then you are more than welcome to join us there for some fun.
It is a great space. It's a great space for connection and collaboration. So thank you for holding that space. And I will drop the links to all of those in the show notes. So if you're looking for those, you can head over and grab those. So yeah, thanks so much Fi for being in conversation and thank you to those listening, to you listening. Thank you for being here with us for the conversation as well. And until next time, bye for now.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
