Today I've got Alissa Rumsey back on the podcast and we're talking about doing business differently.

We dive into Alissa's transition from the typical entrepreneur model and offering traditional business coaching to a social justice driven, values aligned, feminist approach.

We chat about what's changed in her own practice, in how she shows up for other clinicians and in the changes she sees in their businesses too. As always, Alissa shares openly and generously about the process and the ongoing nature of this work.

Alissa Rumsey, MS, RD, CDN, CSCS (pronouns she/her/hers) is a registered dietitian, certified intuitive eating counselor, and the author of Unapologetic Eating: Make Peace With Food and Transform Your Life. She is the founder of Alissa Rumsey Nutrition and Wellness, a weight-inclusive virtual nutrition practice.

Alissa also supports nutrition entrepreneurs as a business coach and supervisor, helping them to confidently start and grow their businesses. She is the founder of the Dietitian Entrepreneur Foundation Course, an online program that teaches clinicians how to set up and launch their nutrition business, and The Liberated Clinician, a weight-inclusive group-coaching program that helps clinicians build their businesses, their counseling skills, and their confidence, done all in community. Learn more about Alissa at www.alissarumsey.com.

So excited to share another great conversation with Alissa.

Let's dive in.

Links, resources & mentions

Doing the work with Alissa Rumsey Ep 43 The Dietitian Values Podcast

Reframing Imposter Syndrome Ep 24 The Dietitian Values Podcast

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Episode Transcript: Liberating Business Practices with Alissa Rumsey

Laura Jean 0:11

Hello, hello, and welcome to this week's episode of The dietitian values podcast. And it's that time of the month where we have a guest in conversation today. And today I'm chatting to Alissa Ramsey. And that name might be familiar to you if you are a dietitian, or if you've been hanging around here for a while because Alissa and I have chatted in the past. And I'll link that in the show notes the past episode. And so I'll briefly intro Alissa, Alissa is a dietitian by training but mostly a human holding space for other humans. She is based in Brooklyn, New York and has a virtual practice supporting women to break free from diet culture and live their most authentic and liberated lives. And she's even written a book about that called Unapologetic Eating. And she also supports dietitians, to get started in business, and to do things differently there too. And that's what we can chat a bit about today. So welcome Alissa, thanks for being here.

Alissa Rumsey 1:32

Thank you so much for having me, Laura. It's always great to chat with you and happy to be back on the show.

Laura Jean 1:38

And it's always a pleasure, absolutely been in conversation and connection in so many ways. But specifically with you is always always lovely. And so that was like a super brief introduction. But is there anything else that you'd like to share about you? Or things you'd like folks that are listening along to know? Or, you know, even just what's getting, what are you feeling passionate about? Or? Yeah.

Alissa Rumsey 2:05

Yeah. I love the passionate question. What am I feeling passionate about? So yeah, as you mentioned, I have sort of two arms to my business, I have a virtual weight inclusive nutrition practice, where my team and I see folks for one on one counselling, we run some group programmes through there, too. And then I also have another side of my business where I work with dietitians and other clinicians through both a business coaching lens and the supervision lens. And really just, you know, I've gone through this transition myself of being, you know, working full time for a company and then transitioning out on my own and going through that learning curve with entrepreneurship and business ownership, and then also sort of like a second learning curve with kind of questioning some of the things I had been taught about business. And so yeah, I really, really love holding space for other clinicians. So whether that's one on one, I offer one on one services, I also have a group coaching programme called the liberated clinician, which is this really awesome six month container for dietitians, and other clinicians that incorporates a bunch of different things. I know, you know this, because you've been one of our guest, teachers there, but it's part business coaching, part supervision, also, including case consultations, and a variety of different guest speakers to really broaden our perspectives, and then all done in community. So it's small group, and I think that's what's been really powerful is having this place where there's people, you know, kind of committed to the same type of work through a weight inclusive justice informed lens and really wanting to deepen those pieces of of their business and of their counselling.

Laura Jean 4:02

You're a busy woman. And you're doing some pretty cool things, which I really appreciate. And I'd love to really kind of tease out a bit in there or dive into that. I know last time we chatted, we kind of talked about that evolution, and it's often something we talk about in the inclusive space around that evolution in our clinical practice around how we start out practising like, this is a dietitian and we shift into weight inclusive approach. and probably I think your experience is quite unique in that you started your business coaching approach to business when you were in transition into the weight inclusive approach or focus . You'd already kind of gone through the weight inclusive transition or you were in transition from a clinical perspective? Yeah. Is that right?

Alissa Rumsey 4:53

Yeah. So when I started working directly with other dietitians in terms of supporting them with their business and starting growing the business, I think it was like 2017, which was actually the same year that I started undergoing my transition of just finding weight inclusive care. And really transitioning my business and that did not happen. It was just sort of like happenstance. So I started working with other dietitians through something that I started called the Dietician Entrepreneur Mastermind retreat. And this was an idea that came out of something that in 2016, some colleagues and I did, and we sort of did it peer to peer together and got together for a weekend and just really worked on our businesses and had people to brainstorm with and bounce ideas off of and people kind of in different practice areas and different expertises. And so I had that experience in 2016. I said, Okay, I really would love to do something like this for other dietitians. And so I had that planned for 2017. And then that was the year that I also happened to stumble upon Evelyn Tribole's Intuitive Eating course, which completely shifted how I thought about my clinical practice. So to answer your question, yes, I was in transition, I had it was fall of 2017. So I had kind of redone all my kind of the counselling side of my business, the marketing to be more aligned with at that time, it was more intuitive eating, you know, I was in the early stages. And like many people, I think that intuitive eating was kind of my gateway into weight inclusive care. So yeah, when I started my business work, that was there, but Right, I was still like, very new to that, to running a weight inclusive business.

Laura Jean 6:48

Yeah. Because I feel like and I'd like be interested in your experience, because I don't like there's a handful of people who are supporting other dietitians with their business side of things. And with that, who have, you know, who are weight inclusive clinicians themselves, And something here that I think is really interesting, is that transition, or how that kind of shaped or mirrored or like what your experience was around, then what did you see in how you were approaching business? Because I think like you said, intuitive eating is that kind of gateway in and you notice a few things and you go, Oh, okay, yep, cool, start changing things. And then as you change things, you keep noticing, and noticing to get to this point where you're just like, radically, you know, throwing out the nutrition assessment form, or maybe that's just me, and but you know, you get that you keep going like, and you just keep uncovering all these layers. And for myself, personally, I found that in the business stuff, as I started getting deeper into things, then I was just like, oh, that's icky. Oh, no, that's like, you know, you keep uncovering these things. And I noticed a similar, I think my business side of thing was a little bit more, it was a quicker kind of turnaround, but it was definitely like a process of that kind of noticing. And it still is. And so yeah, just be curious about your experience, what happened for you. And how that did that kind of mirror? Or was it different? Or? Yeah, what was your experience?

Alissa Rumsey 8:15

Yeah, great question. So yeah, I kind of had these, you know, sort of two paths, like I was on this path in my nutrition practice with shifting to a more weight inclusive model of care. And yes, like you said, right, like, starts with one thing. And then you're like, oh, wait, oh wait, oh wait. And, and I think that's an ever I mean, you know, now what, six years in, and there's still things that I'm changing, like every few months, and I think that's just the reality, right, of being human and of learning and being like, Oh, wait, I could do this a little bit differently. So yeah. So I had started that process. And then on the business side of things, you know, at that point, I was several years into running my own business. And, you know, when I first started my business, I had no business training, like many dietitians. And it was a very steep learning curve, but I felt really lucky to know a lot of business owners and specifically dietitian business owners that really helped to shorten my learning curve. And in talking to other dietitians, I realised that not many people have those connections. And so that was part of my goal for the mastermind retreat was not only to, for me to be teaching, but also for them to be able to start to form community around other business owners.

Because again, remember, this was six years ago, so there was not you know, a lot of that does exist now, where there's more options, but at the time, there was literally nothing. It's so wild to think about, because six years ago, this feels not that long ago. But yeah, there was really no one doing business coaching specifically for dietitians at that time. Um, so, you know, I, of course, was still early on in my entrepreneurship journey, but felt that there were things that I could share, and we could sort of like work together through things. And. And so that's how the mastermind retreat came out. And so, you know, I was running them. I ran in three years, I think, like 12 Different in person retreats. Sounds like so much now. I'm like, How did I have the energy to do all that back then, I was running four a year, and these were in person in New York, it was so much fun, I do miss the in person events, a lot of work, but so much fun. And every time right, I would revisit my materials and would be updating so many things, right. So there was absolutely that evolution. And then I think, and I had kind of after the first one or two sort of found this formula that worked from a, you know, two and a half days, like the structure and the topics and being able to kind of fill in the gaps for a lot of dietitians on the business side of things.

And so I was sort of just kind of kept doing the like, four a year, like two in the spring two in the fall. And then COVID happened, the pandemic happened. And so the spring of 2020 retreats, I actually pivoted to go online, they were both fully enrolled. And, you know, obviously, it gave people the option, I was like, this is not going to be the same as an in person weekend in New York, but we're still going to do it. And again, so funny to think about it now, because at the time everyone was looking for that connection, and we're totally cool to sit on Zoom for like, a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, like eight hours a day. And so I did it, then, you know, and also, I had started probably the year before 2019, really starting to, I was introduced to the work of Kelly Diels, who that's how you and I met. And so it was starting to kind of bring in more of a feminist perspective to business and marketing. And so that was coming through in what I was teaching. And right, it was kind of like, just been like full speed ahead, I hadn't really had a chance to pause. So 2020 kind of gave me that chance to pause, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna stop the retreats, I do not, you know, by like fall 2020, it was very clear, no one was going to have the bandwidth myself included to do two and a half days on Zoom. Right? It was very different from the very beginning in March. And I just realised this was a really good chance for me to deepen my knowledge around justice informed and anti oppressive business practices and how I was doing it myself. And I think, right, we like have to do it ourselves before trying to share that with others. So I took a couple of years off, I stopped business coaching, I stopped running the retreats. And really, yeah, I've spent a lot of time in Kelly Diel's orbit, as well as other folks, and just really doing a lot of that, you know, the same lens that I had been and continued to apply to my clinical care like applying that to my business.

Laura Jean 13:18

Yeah. And I really appreciate, and folks that hang out here will know I really love a pause. Because I think often we don't get it and you mentioned that like, you know, you were starting you know, your lens was widening around the feminist business practices and starting to think about that, and kind of incorporating that on the go. And I think that tends to be what happens. And so that opportunity to pause and to actually reflect and integrate and embed, like the new knowledge new information we have and taking it beyond the intellectual. Because I think that often when we are kind of integrating it on the go, like you said, we're not always necessarily having that time to put it into practice ourselves, or even just having that time to really put like that critical analysis piece over across of stuff. So I think yeah, that is really interesting. How do you notice or do you notice a difference then? Because like, obviously, in your clinical practice, you will do it on the go, which I think is just really standard. And sometimes we don't always have the opportunity for the pause. Did you notice a difference then when over because I mean, part of it was external with COVID, etc. But actually giving yourself that time to kind of percolate in all that information before actually going okay, well, the next step to actually sharing it or teaching around it.

Alissa Rumsey 14:38

Well, so yeah, it's, it's great that you brought that up. So I actually did take a pause from like a counselling side of things back in 2017, which I felt very lucky to be able to do because at the time, I was working full time for myself. But at the time the counselling side of my business was just one part of my business and it was kind of a smaller income stream. Um, at the time, and I was doing back then a lot of like brand spokesperson work and media work and like partnerships and things like that. So I was actually able to be like, Okay, no more clients, I'm pausing, probably about six months. And, you know, obviously, I still had people that I was finishing up our work together with, and I was trying to do it on the go, which is very hard when someone has come to you for weight loss. And now you're like, oh, but what about this, right, because that's not what they signed up for you with. So it was actually kind of like a relief to not take on new people and to be able to just learn, and then really kind of have that pause and reset before, you know.

And so I did like back in 2017, redo all my marketing for my counselling clients and things like that, and really thought about that a lot. So yeah, in 2020, I got the opportunity to do that from the business coaching side of things. And I think the other thing, because I loved what you said about moving from like intellectual to actually like, what does this look like in practice. And I think another thing that helped Well, a few things that were all happening at the same time. So in 2020, I was writing my book Unapologetic Eating. Obviously, 2020, you know, in the US, not only was the pandemic going on, but also there was, you know, with the George Floyd murder, excuse me, George Floyd murder. And then just all of the racial justice uprisings, I was living in New York City, I was like, right in the centre of so much stuff going on. And so it was in my face in a way where I couldn't look away. And I was trying to write this book. And I was, you know, all these things were going on. And I think it forced me to start to integrate them because now I'm writing this book. And I actually, I signed the book contract like a week before the world shut down with the pandemic at the end of February. And at first I was like, Oh, this is great, I'm gonna have all this time to write not thinking about how anxiety affects your ability to be creative, and write and work. And so the first couple months, I actually barely did any writing. And it was a lot of me just really thinking about the racial justice uprisings front and centre, and the inequities with the pandemic and pandemic response, and who was being affected, really thinking about how that impacted my clinical work, and sort of then writing the book from there.

And then the following year, 2021, still on a pause from the business coaching side of things, I underwent a full brand redo, which I hadn't done since I started my business. And in the course of that, right, you're thinking about, website copy, working with a website design and branding team. And so they're asking all these questions about your values, and all of these things that, when you're doing it on the go, I had thought about that, but I had never like sat down and then from scratch, really answered all of these things. And so I feel like those two pieces of writing the book during this time of lots of upheaval, and then also from scratch, rewriting my website, because up until then it had been sort of like fixes and band aids.

Laura Jean 18:33

Add a page here, add a page there.

Alissa Rumsey 18:35

Exactly. And I was like, Okay, I'm building something new. What does that look like? And really, again, taking that pause. And so, yeah, you know, obviously, I'm still seeing clients, but it really made me think about how I was communicating information. And how I was putting that all together on my website, but then, you know, in the book, and then social media and all of these places. So I had the pause in 2017 for the clinical care and the counselling. And then this was another pause for the business marketing side of things that happened like between 2020 and 2021.

Laura Jean 19:17

And it's so essential. I mean, like, I wax lyrical about the pause, and I love that you can give this really, another sort of example of what that looks like in practice and how important it is, because I think, and if you're listening along to Alissa, and I chat, and if you've had those moments where you kind of feel a bit like, it feels really hard and uncomfortable. I mean, it feels hard and uncomfortable anyway, but when you're trying to do it without pausing when we're trying to do it on the go, if that feels uncomfortable, and you're thinking How's everyone doing it? Everyone's not necessarily and I think that opportunity to give yourself time, give yourself an actual literal pause if you can, can really just give you that space in those moments and I think sometimes we can get started, you know, particularly the website's a great example, you know, often and you just kind of get something going and get started. But having then that opportunity to pause and really being intentional - how do I want this to look like? How do I want this to be? We don't, it's pretty rare that people start working with a business coach or working with somebody at the very, very, very beginning of their business. Because just resource wise, often it's not really practical. And sometimes it's not even worth it. Because you don't really know what you don't know. Right? You don't really know that.

So yeah, having that time in the middle, such an important opportunity, and just having that regular opportunity to pause to actually think about what am I up to here. And taking that knowledge on beyond that intellectual into the embodied and integrated approach. So thanks for sharing around that pause. Because often, we don't talk about it. And often I notice there's that, and it's not even people trying to necessarily hide, they're having a pause. But often we're trying to keep things moving, you know, because there's those cultural messages we have is that if you pause, you die, like, you know, like, you're all your momentum is lost, if you take a break from this or that, that you you lose that. What kind of came up for you around that? Did you notice those kinds of messages or values popping up for you? And what did you actually see play out? Does that feel true?

Alissa Rumsey 21:33

I love this. I'm so glad you brought up the , this like hustle culture aspect of it. And this aspect of, well, if I'm like taking myself out of the, in this case, it was the business coaching game, like what does that mean for the future? And absolutely, there was part of me that was worried about that. And this is where having spaces - I was working with Kelly Diels that year, I also had people like you and my supervisor and people that I could like, say these things out loud to and be like, Yeah, I'm nervous. If I do stop this, then, you know, within a few years, when I come back is anyone going to care? Or is this going to be right? Am I going to lose this momentum that I've just spent three plus years building? So yes, that fear was absolutely there. And in having those conversations with people who I trust, and who support me able to realise what was the best thing for me and my business at the time, which was to pause that side of the business.

And, you know, part of that decision was to put the energy that year towards my book and to like that side of my business. And I think what, so that was kind of more of the original intention. And then what I realised it was Oh, wait, this is going to be a really great time for me space, time and space for me to just have a little bit more like breathing room and a chance for that working on the business. As opposed to that being in the nitty gritty, every single day, which I am great at, I'm great at like the checklists and the getting stuff done. It's much harder for me to pause and take a step back. And, you know, do that big picture work. Because, yeah, I think for a bunch of reasons, but like you said, a lot of that messaging that we get around what this is supposed to look like, and what a business is supposed to look like. And yeah, really having to recognise that that was potentially impacting my ability to take a pause and do some of this background work.

Laura Jean 23:46

Yeah. And I was actually aware of your work pre pandemic, and I had seen your entrepreneurial mastermind thing, and I thought, Oh, that looks really cool. And then now to see where you're at, and what you're putting out in the world, which, I think that some of the things are still the same. Like one of the things you mentioned, there was that real drive to bring community and bring people together and bring connection. And obviously, a lot of stuffs been different. So what were the things or what are the things that you are really doing differently? Or what's kind of shaping where you're at now.

Alissa Rumsey 24:29

So, you know, having that time off to pause, and I think having this time off to pause and thinking about really taking more like action and like how does this align and again, I wasn't specifically thinking from a business coaching perspective, I was like, in my business, and as I'm doing this, and as I'm part of other groups and learning from different people, you know, it was also not just taking kind of more business training. At that point, but also more counselling skills, I was deepening those, I was part of different accountability type groups. I was part of Kelly Diels' feminist marketing circle. And so I'm part of all these different groups, and I was sort of sitting there being like, I really want to create something for clinicians, that kind of pulls all of these things together, right? So I'm in all these, like disparate groups that were all amazing. And I learned so much from all of them and I was like, Okay, how can I take these different pieces that I'm finding so valuable, and wrap them into one setting. So, I started dreaming about having a space where people could learn about and talk about business building, specifically from a weight inclusive, and also specifically from a justice informed place, tying both those pieces together.

Also, having a space where the loneliness that comes up, being a solo entrepreneur, that's definitely so real for me. The like, confidence issues, I hear this a lot from people, like impostor syndrome, and I'm putting that in quotes. You know, just like confusion on sort of, like, Am I doing this, right? How do I do this? just having a lot of those components when trying to start a business or build a business. And then I also wanted to be in a space, and I was part of a really amazing group, facilitated by Eva Glamaris. And this was nothing to do with business building, it was actually a space Eva was leading for white women around anti racism. And I had this experience in that space of being able to show up as my full self. And there was an experience that happened, while that you and I talked about on our last podcast, actually, that we did, that happened while I was in that group with Eva. Um, so go listen to that episode, if you want to hear more about this. But in short, that happened while I was in this group with Eva and I was able to come to this group, and show up and show up in all the feelings I was having, and they held me in those feelings and held me accountable. And I thought that was so so powerful.

So I wanted a space like that, to where, you know, I think a lot of critiques around HAES and the weight inclusive space that I hear from folks is that they just seem so harsh, or they don't allow for mistakes, like very binary. And so I wanted and I, you know, I can see kind of both sides of that, right, I can see where these people have been doing this work for decades. And then like someone new coming in, and like not knowing the context. And I can also understand being that new person coming in and being like, oh, I want to learn and then feeling like, oh, my gosh, what's happening. I really wanted a space where I could hold that, you know, trying to understand and those struggles, but while also being held accountable to grow and change and learn and unlearn. So that was really, you know, I was having this experience myself and all of these different groups. I'm like, Okay, how can I pull these together?

So what came out of that was the liberated clinician programme that I run now. And I would say like the biggest difference. I mean, it's, you know, yes, there's a lot of the same business concepts that I taught at the mastermind retreat, obviously now through that justice informed or anti oppressive lens. But I think the piece around, there's two main differences. So one is obviously that now it is through a justice informed lens and talking about kind of, quote unquote, traditional business practices or business advice versus Okay, what does this look like if we put this through justice informed, values aligned lens, like I know you talk about all the time. And then the other piece is really building in the like regenerative practice, which we haven't yet talked much about today. But that was a big thing for me, too, was seeing like I definitely went through a period of burnout that I'm still working on coming out of. And I think that happens to a lot of clinicians and definitely to a lot of entrepreneurs because we do get these messages about hustle and there can be some real financial reasons why we have to do that. And so I also really wanted to incorporate time for care and regenerative practices within the group to talk about things like burnout. What does that look like? How can we prevent that? Talking about things like boundaries, talking about rest, talking about taking time off without feeling guilty, talking about the nervous system and how we can regulate our own nervous system. And not only how that helps us, but then also how does that help our clients. So I'd say those are the two kind of newer components in this is that justice informed lens, and then also incorporating more of the regenerative practices.

Laura Jean 30:44

I love that both of those angles. I think adding that lens is so helpful, we don't have to throw everything out, we don't have to be like, Oh, I can't do any of that I need to learn everything new. Like there's things that we can bring along with us. There's things that we can, some things we do have to definitely throw in the bin, and a lot of things we can bring through. And then that second piece of how do we do it differently, regeneratively for us, which yes, helps the humans we work with, and also helps us and helps us build that different kind of world that we want to be part of I think so taking it beyond just, again, that intellectual idea of how we do things and actually like, how does that look? And I often talk about it, how does it look, then yeah, when we turn our values towards ourselves, so when you run that social justice lens, through your practices that go outward, but also the practices that actually directly impact you as a clinician and absolutely in business.

And so what are some of the things that you find are really either for yourself in your own practice, or as you've gone through the liberated clinician, a few rounds of that, so what of those regenerative practices and obviously, every person's individual, but that are really either really resonating, or really, people are getting a lot of support from or even for yourself? Like what was some of the things that made a really big shift in your business around changing that to more regenerative approach to doing business.

Alissa Rumsey 32:13

So a couple of things are coming to mind. So one, and this was both personally, as well as feedback that I've heard from members of liberated clinician is this idea that, you know,I know speaking for myself, I certainly had this thing of like, 12 months of the year, and all 12 months are the full, full speed ahead of just right, like, whether it's January, whether it's, you know, April, whether it's November, things are gonna look the same. And this is something that another shout out to Eva, and as well as lots of other people, but she's the one that's coming to mind of really kind of the different seasons and how, you know, just like plants go dormant in the winter. And we they kind of like turn inwards like, just the different seasons and how that can affect our energy and our output and how our business is probably not going to look the same in January as it does in April. And that's not only okay, but that's probably needed. And so just kind of trusting more in that like listening to my body, of the times where I need to slow down, I definitely slowed down this winter, especially really the last couple of months. And trusting that that's going to be okay, that I'm still gonna have a business, that I don't need to work eight, nine hours a day, five days a week to have a business, I can maybe work like four days a week, and maybe like five or six hours. And that's okay. And just knowing that there's going to be times where I have more energy going towards my business and times where I don't. And I think that's another thing that I've heard from the members of the liberated clinician of just that permission, giving ourselves that permission to rest and permission to whether it's, you know, pausing to like work sort of on our business, or whether it's just pausing to rest, because that's okay, as well. And so yeah, I think that's one thing that really comes to mind of what was really powerful for me, and then I've seen it be powerful for the members of the group.

I think the other thing is, that's been really powerful is again, the community aspect. So you know, being able to come together and the group meets at least once a week sometimes depending on what's going on. We might have more than one session a week, and just being able to show up in that space. And like I said, I really have worked hard to cultivate a space where people can show up as themselves and can bring their full personhood and human hood to, to the group. And so sometimes the shares have nothing to do with business, it's like what's going on in our personal life. Because that's just as important, if not more important, right, then what's happening in our business. So seeing that community be cultivated, and seeing people be able to show up for each other and support one another, and also have the 'me too' moments around, oh, I'm like, feeling like this client decided to stop working together and I'm feeling a lot of shame around that. And did I do something and what's going on and, and just being able to have other people be like, No, that's happened to me too. And yeah, I totally know how you're feeling and just not feeling alone with the ups and downs that happen in business and being a clinician. So I think that's been really powerful for me to see. And also for me to experience, you know, I have a co facilitator, Jasmine Hormati. And it's been really great to just for me, while I still lead most of the sessions, just knowing that she's there has been so helpful. And so, you know, again, I think like building these communities where we can have people to lean on, and have people to support us, is so important, and can help us feel less alone.

Laura Jean 36:36

Absolutely, I think it's a piece that most dietitians in business and most clinicians are looking for, because we are often we come from that traditional training or and maybe even initially in our work and or maybe not, of being in connection with other clinicians or being in multidisciplinary teams. And then just kind of by yourself, and humans thrive in connection, you know, they say, We that often told saying, ifof it takes a village to raise a baby, but it basically takes a village just to be a human, you know, we need a village around us for that connection, that community, that group of people who can I love what you were saying before, you know, who can hold us absolutely, but also hold us accountable who can help us to see our biases help us to see maybe those limitations and be a sounding board. But not always an echo chamber, although sometimes that's nice, too, you know, that shared human experience absolutely, we need that, because it's important for so many things, self compassion being one of them. So I think that community piece, we're often looking for it, and finding a way to offer it, where it goes beyond that just we're similar, you know, we had this one thing in common but, but that we're we're having, we're having more things in common.

And something I think, that I see in your work that you do so well, because you talk about your values, and you really let those shine through. And I'm interested or wondering, do you find that that because I often talk about, you know, when you use your, you're not using your values to market like a like a, like a trick, but when you let your values come through in your marketing, and they actually, people know who you are, and what you show up for them, then that actually helps you to, helps you to build your business helps you to build it more sustainably. And regeneratively. Absolutely. And also just helps you to bring that connection to humans who actually are like-valued and want those similar kinds of things. Have you noticed that as that shifted in your business?

Alissa Rumsey 38:43

Absolutely, absolutely. I think that's another big difference from the retreats. I used to run where that was just marketed to like dietitian, either aspiring entrepreneurs or established entrepreneurs. That was like, really it. And because of that, you know, we got a big, a lot of diversity in terms of who that drew in. And I think when I ran this group where I started running Liberated Clinician, I was much more intentional of, yeah, I mean, I say weight inclusive or weight inclusive curious. So off the bat, like there's a filter, right? And then I'm using language around doing business differently, not traditional marketing, justice, informed care, anti oppressive practices, unpacking our biases, all of these things, right. So again, that's going to pull in people with that they value that, like you're saying, and so what was so cool to see so even though I knew that I was doing that, I also hadn't really thought about how that would impact the makeup of the group and the cohesion of the group.

And so when I started with my first cohort, I was just like Oh my gosh, I can't believe it because I've run a lot of groups in the dietitian side of things, but also like the client counselling side. And I found sometimes I've had groups that just like come together so well and other times where it's like, oh, just like, you know, not as well. And so I was just like, oh, wow, I got lucky on this first round, the group like really came together and like, so cohesive. And then I ran it again, and it happened again. And then I was having a conversation with Fiona Sutherland, one of my supervisors, and she was like, Well, you were very specific with what you're talking about this what this programme is about, and that's going to draw in specific people. And I was like, Oh, right. And so I think it's been so cool to see that of just, yeah, the people that it draws in definitely, like, still a lot of diversity and like practice area and background and like lived experience. But with that lens of like, justice and equity being a value of theirs with anti oppressive practices being a value of theirs with inclusive practices being a value of theirs. And so it's just been so cool to see. And as a facilitator, you know, running like dozens of different groups in the past, I'd always just assumed when there's a group of people there's going to be a couple that might need more energy as a facilitator towards whether that's like trying to like pull people out of their shell and getting them to contribute or trying to manage just different energy dynamics. I don't really have to do any of that. And it's so wild to me. You know, certainly there's still a facilitation component, but it's just, yeah, it still kind of blows my mind how much the cohesion, like with being super specific. It just kind of pulls these people in, that have these similar values. And that's been really, really cool to see.

Laura Jean 42:06

Yeah, that's such a good testimony to that specificity. Because I think sometimes when we are creating, you know, what's called in the business world a niche, but you know, it's really just the humans you want to work with. That, we can think that if we, if we'd be specific that we're going to, again it's those same things of like missing out, when you be specific, we're going to miss out. And it's a great testimony for what you actually found was, well, you don't really miss out because actually, it's so much more aligned, I would use the term in big quotes better, better being whatever it means to you. But you know, that whole idea. And again, in the traditional business kind of coaching world, it's like, you know, have a niche of like, certain demographics. And it's Cindy, who drives an SUV and has three kids and a golden lab, like, you know, it's that kind of stuff. And then yeah, then that's what you get, as you get maybe people who are a certain kind of group of humans, but not necessarily similar values,not always aligned with kind of what you do.

And I see that sometimes in the weight inclusive, intuitive eating space that people like, how do I get the people who already kind of know, you know, where I don't have to do all this work of getting them on the same page kind of thing. And I mean, I think that through your values, like marketing, but that piece of then taking that niche beyond this is just someone's labels. And yes, while that's important, so for instance, weight inclusive dietitian, their labels, and all clinician, and that does help people know who the group is for, and taking it beyond that, and using those values as a way to allow people to see themselves there. And that aspirational part of themselves. Yeah, that's the kind of clinician I want to be. Or if you're working, you know, your marketing is directed towards people around their relationship with food in their body. That's the kind of way I want to be and so, you know, again, traditional marketing will say, push the pain points, these are the things we want people to move away from that. I think that real aspirational of this is what we are aspiring to be as humans, and clinicians in this space. And hey, if that's what you're aspiring to, you know, come along, come along, and the difference that makes.

And again, in traditional marketing, there's always that whole idea of having copy around 'this is who it's for, this is who it's not for' and you can do that through just your language when you're talking about what are the values what are the questions, so it's a great I suppose a great yeah, just like that. It's that embodied integrated idea, to come back to what we were talking about before, it's not just you going into this programme and having the liberated clinician and talking about how you do these things. It's you actually embedding it in your business practices and being able to go well, this is what happens. This is the results that when you are using your values it makes marketing easier, right. But then also you are working with humans you really want to work with. And then the group is coming together more easily. And people are kind of on that similar page.

Alissa Rumsey 45:17

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And yeah, it's, it's cool to see it. You know, we just wrapped up another cohort last week, right before our recording of this. And in hearing some of the people's reflections, just what had shifted for them over the course of the six months. Several people mentioned what you just said, of getting really clear on my values and having that come through in marketing. Now they're working with so many more folks of like, yes, this is who I get excited to talk to. And I'm like, you know, I think that was a big shift for me, too,with the liberated clinician, and I had been running a different group programme before that, you know, I really enjoyed the people in it. But each week, I was like, okay, like, I got another one this week. And it was just, it was a different energy. And with the liberated clinician, I'm like, so excited for calls. And so that, to me, was like a big signal. And then in seeing folks with their own businesses notice the same of like, oh, yeah, I'm excited to talk to these people. And I'm, you know, more of these people are like, finding me, now that I'm putting this out in this way. So that's been really cool to see that.

Laura Jean 46:39

And I think too, the other piece, that I'm thinking too, is theway that you're holding space for people to show up in their full humanity and bring that into their business, when we actually show who we are. Because I think that again, the traditional business and also as clinicians, our professional training is very much like this is your professional you, and then you leave personal you out of it. And you don't talk about that. And then actually, though, when we do, and obviously we don't have to, like bring everything unless you want to. And when we actually bring that into our businesses into our marketing into who we are, and into how we work, like that's another piece of it that shifts as well, right. So you're getting your values coming through, you're getting your humanity, you know who you are as a human so that then when people come to work, like they know, they're saying yes to working with you, because it's you, not just yes to working with you, because I need a dietitian. And that's a really big shift.

Alissa Rumsey 47:35

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that that's yeah, there's, there's certainly a line and for everybody, that's different of what they're comfortable sharing. But, I mean, I see that with, you know, my like one on one counselling clients, when I show up, I show up, you know, how I'm showing up to you right now with like, no makeup on usually wearing a sweatshirt. And it's just like, This is me. And that's, you know, the me you are getting and it's really cool, because I have heard feedback. From some clients, where one person said, like, oh, yeah, like I saw we had our call on the calendar. And I was like, I gotta put my eyelashes on. And then they're like, oh, wait, it's Alissa. Like, I don't have to do that. And I'm like, how cool like, No, you don't have to just like, show up. I don't care, you know, what you're wearing or what you look like. And so, yeah, I think that and, you know, with this group, that sort of the energy I've put out there, when we start out, it's like, yeah, you know, what, you're 15 minutes late. So you have to pick your kid up from school come anyway, like, that's fine, like, drop into the call. You know, you can't turn your camera on, because you're sitting in the car waiting for your kids soccer practice to end, which is something that one of our members had, like many of our calls, that's fine, like, no worries. So you know, there was another member who had a lot of personal stuff happened during the six months, which was not expected. And so it was really feeling like, not like getting through the material. Because right, this was just not her focus, understandably, and it shouldn't have been at that time. But she's still felt like she could show up and share just the personal things and just listen to others and be supported in that way. So yeah, I think it's, you know, really cool, no matter who we're working with, to be able to do that and for people to be able to show up in front of us and not feel like they have to hide or filter certain things.

Laura Jean 49:36

Absolutely. And to maintain that relating, and what comes through when you're sharing that is some thinking about and then you know, my mind is extrapolating it into you know as we work and stuff. But what really comes through is that really it's about that relating and maintaining that relationship and relating and that that is the centre, it's not about, they're coming to the liberated clinician so that they can, you know, tick all these checklists off in their business or the humans are not necessarily coming to work with you so they can learn about what they need to eat. Although that might be what we think we're up to. But at the end of the day, the thing that keeps us connected, the thing that actually allows for that work to happen is the relationship and the relating. And when you've got that foundation, people can still come back, you know, people don't have that idea that, Oh, I can't turn up because I haven't, you know, quote, unquote, done my homework or done the work or I'm just, you know, taking this in, but that there is a really like, the impact of that is huge. And that relating piece is the common thread that I'm hearing through what you're sharing.

Alissa Rumsey 50:41

Yeah, yeah. Thank you for calling attention to that. And that's something. Yeah, I just love the the language you use around that. Because yeah, that really is what this is.

Laura Jean 50:54

And it all happens in relating, I mean, you mentioned the nervous system stuff before, like, co-regulation, you know, that's how people can have space to hold their trauma, space to access their sense of safety and things, whether that's fellow clinicians, or whether that's humans you're working with around their relationship with food in their bodies. And so yeah, having that relating piece be the centering of it, versus the idea that if you don't have the time and capacity, maybe it's not worth you coming along, you know, to see me anymore, but actually, like, there's still, you are still human, and we still have a relationship. And there's that relating piece that we'll get, will continue whether that is still there. So I think that that's a really lovely example of how you bring that into your work.

Alissa Rumsey 51:43

Thank you.

Laura Jean 51:45

So I loved, I love hearing about it. And as you mentioned, I was involved in coming into the group and it is such an excellent group of humans, doing different things and, and just wanting to show up and make a difference and do things differently. So I love that there's that space there. Is there anything else that is coming up for you around your own practice, anything else you want to share or anything that you kind of think there'll be helpful, stuff that people don't see, you know, obviously, we've been talking about your business evolution, and we've been talking about and how it relates to like, what you're working on now. But things that you think, ah, that's just something no one really talks about or something in as far as when we do. I mean, there's many things right, that we don't talk about, but like, you know, just something that like, I wish I had known that or this would be really super helpful for people to know.

Alissa Rumsey 52:39

Um, great question. I'm sure there's so many things, the first thing that came up when you were just asking me that is, and this is something we've talked about in group recently, actually just probably why it's top of mind, but this idea that at some point, the quote unquote, imposter syndrome for whatever we're doing goes away. And then at some point, we're just like, yes, we got this, like, no questions like, you know, all of that, right. And so people are looking at me being like, Oh, well, you must never feel this way. And that's not true. Do I feel it in the same way I did five years ago? No. But there's still ways that I feel like that. And I think that's part of being human. And part of being a human that cares about and is open to the continuous growing and changing and learning and unlearning that we're going to do. And so yeah, I think that that's kind of part of it that I think is important to share is that like, right, it can look like I have it quote unquote, altogether, whatever the heck that means. That I must never feel impostor syndrome or confidence issues or anything like that. And no, that's not true. Like, do I feel it about the same things I did in the past? No, but it's still there.

And it's that like, being able to recognise it being able to decide, okay, is this something that was like, handed to me, right, I think that's gonna have I don't even know what you might have an episode on impostor syndrome and how that's more handed down to us from our cultural conditioning than anything else. Is it that or is this something that okay, here's a place for me to learn and grow. So sort of like figuring that out. And being okay with that, being okay with not having all the answers all the time and right because we are humans, and I think that's something the older I get to you know, so much of our training as dietitians. And then obviously the overlay of just like humans is like the 'fake it till you make it' or like 'don't show weakness' or like 'you're the expert, you need to have all the answers' and the older I get, the more it's like, no, you know, that's totally, not only is that not realistic, but that's really harmful, like all of those kind of beliefs are really harmful. And so yeah, just showing up be like, No, I don't really know. And that's what I love about the liberated clinician is that every month, we have two different guests, we have a guest supervisor and a guest teacher, which you came in as to host a workshop. And so I get to learn, I get to bring people in who have different lived experiences and different lenses and different insights. And so yeah, that's what I would say is that, you know, it's always, it's just like a journey of always being in this position of learning and growing. And I'm absolutely more confident in a lot of ways than I used to be, and there's still places where I struggle. And so going back to the community, like having those people that you're in relationship with, is so so important, no matter where you are, in business, or in life.

Laura Jean 56:06

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think that I always appreciate that you are ready to be vulnerable and share those things. And I think it is testament to you as a human. And also just that whole idea for people that yeah, things shift and things change, and certain things get easier. And it doesn't mean that not as like, ‘Oh, God, this is going to be a struggle for the rest of my life’. But like that there's no kind of endpoint to this point, there's one end point, we don't want to get there in a hurry. But there's no end point to, you know, continuing to become, you know, kind of who you already are, to continuing to kind of figure out and connect to yourself. And that doesn't, the idea, that cultural idea is that that looks like yeah, like you said, quote, unquote, having your shit together. But actually, I think that it just looks like being able to take care of ourselves or know how to take care of ourselves more efficiently and effectively.

Because, you know, things like, you know, quote, unquote, imposter syndrome, and all that they do leverage those basic human needs for connection, for validation. And so they're always going to be, they're always going to have that human need that desire to be seen, that desire to be understood. And it gets misconstrued through those ideas from the culture. But those human needs aren't going away. And so thank you for sharing that. Because I think that's really important. And I know we've talked about it too, you know, about emotions and our reactions and stuff that, you know, things don't go away just how we can take care of ourselves and access the support and the community and having those spaces where we can take care of ourselves when it does come up when we can be in that shared humanity. And know Yeah, it's not just me, it's not a me thing, which is what those cultural values would want us to believe that it's actually, this is a shared human experience. And it's because of some of those cultural values. And we can do it differently. And we can access those opportunities to take care of ourselves. So thank you for sharing that.

Alissa Rumsey 57:58

Yeah, yeah. And I appreciate you bringing that in. Because I can understand it might be like, Oh, my gosh, I'm never going to feel like her. This is always going to be there. But for me, it felt very liberating to be like, yeah, it's always gonna be there. And it's going to like, shift and look in different ways. And yeah, kind of just liberating to shift my relationship to that feeling.

Laura Jean 58:22

Absolutely. That's a really important one, because it's that acceptance, not as resignation, but acceptance as, Okay, well, that's always going to be there. So then, so now what? so it actually opens the opportunity for us to think about how we take care of ourselves how we do those things. It's like when we talk about trauma informed care, we accept harm will happen. And then that actually opens us up to think about how we repair how we do those things, when we're so focused on no harm, or we're so focused on you know, quote, unquote, solving or fixing the impostor syndrome, or whatever the problem is the confidence, the boundaries, when we know all they're actually always going to, it's always going to be there, it's always going to be something we're working on, then then we can actually shift Okay, well, how do I build up my muscles, my strength, you know, to feel comfortable and confident around that versus or more comfortable, maybe versus trying to fix it or get rid of it? We can actually shift that focus in Okay, well, what's actually going to support me when this comes up again, and again and again. And like you said, so that, yes, it's still there. But if we think about that kind of spiral, of coming back to it, again, coming back to those experiences, and it's different. Yeah. So, thank you.

Well, before we wrap up, I'm just conscious of the time um, one of my favourite quotes is, by Ada Conroy 'we're planting seeds for a forest we may never get to spend time in', in the work that we do as clinicians, as people supporting other clinicians, humans, to go back to our core is, is sometimes it's not going to change straightaway, right. Sometimes we have these amazing wins and these connection points which is great and this work is like bigger than us it's it's going to be further. So what's the seed that you would like to plant with the people listening along in our conversation today? Or seeds? If you've got more than one?

Alissa Rumsey 1:00:14

Gosh, that's such a beautiful quote. I think I would say something around just the importance of rest and regenerative practice, especially outside of work like, right, like I do have regenerative practices that help me show up more fully for my clients. And, you know, just that, having that identity outside of work and what we do, and what does that look like for you? And I've been thinking more about this, and I'll actually add it here. Joy, like joy and fun is something too, we talked about rest and regenerative practices, and making sure that there's joy, and fun in there as well. I think that's so important. And something I continue to work towards myself and plant for myself.

Laura Jean 1:01:09

Yes, I love that. Rest, joy, and fun and things. Yeah, and outside of, like you said, outside of work outside, of our businesses, outside of our labels that we hold around that. So thank you for that. That's a lovely seed. I'm gonna go plant and I'm gonna think about that for myself as well. So thanks Alissa, thanks so much for your time and for being in conversation. It's always a pleasure. I'll drop all of the details in the show notes. But if people want to connect, or if people want to find out more about the liberated clinician, where should they go? Where can they go?

Alissa Rumsey 1:01:45

They can go to Alissarumsey.com/TLC. All the information is there and we enroll twice a year in April for May cohort start date and then in September for an October start date.

Laura Jean 1:02:02

Excellent, great. And so this episode will be coming out in April. So if you're interested in finding out more or connecting with Alissa, go check that out. And I'll pop all the links, etc in the show notes. And thanks, Alissa, for your time. And for those of you joining us in this conversation today. Thank you for listening along. And until next time, bye for now.

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