Ep 39 Relating, boundaries and values with James-Olivia Chu Hillman
Today I'm in conversation with one of my favourite humans to connect and converse with - James-Olivia Chui Hillman.
James-Olivia facilitates and mediates uncomfortable, necessary, life changing conversations with people who want more joy and connection, and less suffering in their most important relationships with themselves, their loved ones, their organisations and the world.
In this episode we chat about relating, building a shared understanding when it comes to the words we use, boundaries, challenging benevolent contempt and so much more.
I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did.
Let's dive in.
Links, resources & mentions
Social media messaging - we can do better Ep 31 Dietitian Values Podcast
And randomly, for anyone was interested, the word I couldn’t think of about the lines that get closer but never actually meet was Asymptote.
Episode Transcript
Laura Jean 0:01
Hello, hello, and welcome back to another episode of The dietitian values podcast. And I know I often say this when I have a guest that I'm super excited to bring this conversation with you. But also, I'm super excited to bring this conversation to you. I have today a human who may not be a stranger to you, I'm pretty sure I've referenced this human in every podcast or just about, so it was about time I probably got them on. And so I'm talking about none other than James Olivia Chui Hillman. Who goes as inquisitive human over on Instagram. And we're going to have, I don't know yet we haven't restarted recording, but I'm pretty sure it's gonna be pretty juicy, maybe a little bit uncomfortable. And going to bring up a few things, perhaps. But I think that, yes, it's going to be a good one. So James Olivia Chui Hillman facilitates and meditates - who probably does meditate - but also mediates uncomfortable, necessary life changing conversations with people who want more joy and connection, and less suffering in their most important relationships with themselves, their loved ones, their organisations and the world. So welcome. Thanks for being here.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 1:16
Thank you. Hi, Laura. It's so fun to talk to you. And we get to have a conversation in public now. So, yay. Thank you.
Laura Jean 1:24
Yes, thank you. Thank you for offering up your time and your insight and your inquisitive questions, which I hope we will have many as we chat.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 1:36
I don't make any promises on that front. But probably yeah,
Laura Jean 1:40
there's a good chance is good chance. Well, no, I won't hold you to anything, of course, because I can't anyway. But we'll see where we go. So I thought it would be useful or interesting anyway, for me as much as anyone else. If you would like to share what's brought you to where you're at. And with the where you're at with the work that you currently share with the world?
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 2:04
Oh, that would be my whole entire life story. So I don't know how to answer that question. I feel like there are lots of different paths that we could take like there, you know, how did I get here? Through what lens, I guess is the question that I have. So are you are you specifically talking about career path? Or like, how Where do you want to go? I'll go anywhere with you, Laura.
Laura Jean 2:37
Yeah, thank you. Well, I was sort of thinking what you do is like, you know, no one looks up the course careers, you know, guide for university or college and says, I will be an inquisitive human, or I will do this thing. So I'm just curious around what you do, I think is amazing. I suppose what you know, not everyone wants to do a thing where they're having uncomfortable conversation. So I'm curious about that. And also just yeah, like, you know, what, in probably it is a bit career. But it also is a bit your lived experience. But I'm happy to hear anything you'd like to share around that around the things that have gotten you to this place of having these conversations. And really, I suppose just taking action to live into your values and to start living into the world that you want to see.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 3:24
Yeah. Okay. So at the heart of what I get to do, is I get to have conversations with people. Like I just I get to talk to people about things that feel really important to me and seem to be really important to them as well. And so this is going to maybe sound like I've completely oversimplified it because that's what I'm doing right now. But I had a conversation once with Nicole Lewis Kieber, and we were sitting around on Zoom, and I was like, so do you think I could just do that, you think I could just have conversations with people for a living? Like, is that a job? Is that a thing you can do? And she was like, I think you can. I don't see why not. Now it's like, okay, well, that's what I'm gonna do. Like, mind you, this was not that long ago. It's not like this was 30 years ago it's closer to like, three or four or five years ago, not it wasn't like, Okay, I'm going to engineer this job for myself. And over the course of my entire life, I will, I will consciously like you said, I will consciously get to the place where I get to sit around and have uncomfortable life changing conversations with people and that will be my dream job. But I, I had a not dream job in corporate for many years, where I worked for a very large retail chain in various positions within the company. And one of them was working in their IT department. And one of the jobs that I had was to document business processes, so that the people who develop the software to support the business of retail knew exactly what they were supporting. And so part of my job there was really digging into the nitty gritty of like, okay, so what do we, what do we do here? And okay, what how do you get from, you know, deciding that you want this thing in this season, you know, in this store? To sell? How do you know how many to buy? How do you know what to buy? How do you get it from the the manufacturer, to the actual store? Like, what does this whole process look like? And I found that in documenting all these processes, I got to have conversations with people about the nitty gritty of like, me dig into everything, how do we do that? How do decisions get made? How do you get from, from the idea to the actual execution of this thing. And I didn't care about retail, I didn't care at all, about if we sold more shoes or more lipsticks, like it didn't make any difference to me. But I loved having those conversations, I loved seeing if, like, Okay, I'm drawing a picture of the way that you do your job. I'm drawing a map of it ,does this map track to what you're telling me the job is, and what I cared about was the the experience that people were having when they were doing their job.
And I found that that translates directly into the way that I care about the experience that people are having, as they tell me about, you know, this is the way I relate to my mom, or this is the way I relate to my partner, this is the way I relate to my kids, or my boss, or my politics or my community. And I'm like, oh, there are processes here. They're like, I understand. My mind, now sees in this language of like, Oh, I could draw a picture of that. I could draw a map of the conversation you just had with your kid. And I can see all the pain points in there. Like the step by step of how you got there, how you made different decisions in this interaction with somebody and go, Whoa, there are things that are going on that aren't really like you're making a decision, and it's not really getting you what you want. And it might not even be not getting the outcome you want with the person, it might not be aligned with your own values, and it doesn't feel good to get what you want, or what you think you want.
Laura Jean 7:44
Yeah, I think that that is a big piece, which I don't want to let go of. But I just find that so interesting, that story of yet, how you and clearly the way that you're able to see things, it's almost like a 30,000 foot view, like zooming all the way out, but then seeing all of the detail from like really far away, like all of those pieces, and how it all kind of connects together outside of just that single interaction, just that single conversation. And then with that knowledge, the possibility, like you said, to then maybe live into our values to to change things to shift things. When we have that, that map when we can see it for the bigger picture, rather then just 'you said the thing,they said the thing or I said the thing' or they didn't listen to the thing, you know. So rather than that kind of microcosm of the conversation interaction, but actually how itpieces together through our whole experience, and is that the experience that we want to be choosing? Yeah, yes. I love that. And obviously brought values in, which is always something I like to talk about. And yeah, what well, interesting, I've never actually asked you this, but what are the values that you live by, work by, exist by show up in?
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 8:56
This is so funny. So in the workshop that I was leading earlier today, we started talking about values, and I think I grapple, I grapple with even the idea of values because I think of them as preferences. And not to not to diminish them. I'm not saying that, like, oh, that's just your preference. Because our preferences can be really, really strong guides for how we show up and navigate the world. Like if I were to say I have a value for or I hold the value of kindness or a value of compassion that these are my preferences for how I show up in the world. They're my preferences for how I navigate and how I make decisions. And for me, it feels like there's a step beyond that. I don't know if beyond is the right word. I start getting very nitpicky about my words. And know if anybody's following on Instagram and knows why I only share two sentences a day I joke about this, it takes me all day to write the two sentences that I'm going to share. So. So it might take me a while to get this out. But I can hold these values, I can say, like, I value kindness, I value compassion, and then there are commitments. Like I have a commitment to something. And a lot of times our commitments aren't necessarily the things that we say we value. Like, I might say, Oh, I have a value, like I value kindness. And I might have a really, really strong commitment to managing my safety or my sense of belonging. And that might override sometimes my value of kindness, because I'm busy doing a bunch of relational fuckery, trying to manage my belonging. It's that commitment that I have, that I might not even be fully aware of. So I tend to think that until my values, and my commitments are aligned, I might have a little bit of internal conflict, might have some dissonance?
Laura Jean 11:24
Absolutely, absolutely. And this is where I see like, a lot of the people that I work with humans that I get to work with is, is that there at that point where so like, I think I think you right the values are really preferences, because the way that I think of values being expressed is it's the way that we get on, like, it's how we prefer to get our needs met, or how we want to get our needs met to get that. So I agree, having had conversations with you and knowing your definition of preference. I think that is how they kind of come up. And that commitment piece is the disconnect that we find ourselves in because we exist in a world or a society or an organisation a job, a space or relationship with this set of values over here. And we have these sets of values, and there's a big disconnect. And so we might be like you said committed to showing up in a certain way, in that space, or in that relationship that isn't actually aligned with our values. And the work or the the discomfort comes in. Yeah, in bringing that closer and closer. So eventually, more often than not, because I don't think I don't know, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, if you've come across anyone who does it perfectly, not perfectly, who does it 100% of the time. I don't like the word perfectly, you know, it just sort of bringing them together. Like, verging, what are those lines, like there's a type of line, it's like a parallel line, but it comes closer and closer. It never actually means but it just, you know, one of those I don't know, people maybe remember that from high school, I can't remember what the word is. But there's a word for that. And these lines that kind of come like that, and that is what I feel like that values, what I would maybe say your values and like, say, the commitment, and then and possibly it is, you know, us creating those boundaries or creating those ways of being able to bring our values and talk about them or show up in them or yet or see like you said what is the other need that is that we're trying to get met, when we're living outside of our values? And becoming conscious of that?
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 13:29
Yeah. Yes, it's juicy. And I don't know if I ever answered your question about what my values are.
Laura Jean 13:37
Oh, that's okay. You don't have to disclose your values. That conversation still went in a lovely, oh, not lovely, no direction of really, you know, wrapping words around values of how you see values, which is just as interesting. Because, like, I think what you're saying before, because even, I mean, I'm curious and possibly a bit noisy about what people's values are, but they're for you really, like it's really for ourselves and what we're doing. I mean, I think I mean, I talk about how our values can give us an opportunity to create, like a space with somebody else, or like, you know, a relationship with somebody else when we can bring our values and we can communicate them. Yeah, but they're really, they're really for us and how we show up?
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 14:17
Yeah. Yeah, I was having, in the workshop today, I was having this conversation, partly with Renee whom you know. And she was bringing up one of our very first conversations that Renee and I had was around values and, and she was talking about, like, yeah, I just want to make sure that there are shared shared values and I was like, other people's values are none of your business. You know, your values are for you there as you say, my values are for me to guide my actions and my decisions and how I navigate the world. And we were talking today about how people can profess the same values and they might manifest in in really oppositional ways. So you can get, you know, 10 people in a room talking about the value of justice, like valuing justice. And on one end of this continuum, somebody's like, 'Yes, I value justice, abolition, this is how this is how we're going to, we're going to do it through abolition', and this other person's like, 'I value justice. And that means this person needs the death penalty'. And it's like, whoa, two people who are deeply, deeply devoted, devoted to the value of justice might see justice in completely different ways and how that manifests might not work at all, they might be in direct opposition in their how. And you can have people who have two very different values. And the core of what they want is, is completely different, but it might manifest in very aligned ways. And they can collaborate, like somebody might say, 'I really, really value, the sovereignty of children. And somebody's like, 'well I value democracy', it's like, great. Now we can get together and work on education. Like, these are both really great cornerstones to work on education. And you might not have anything, like your values might be whatever they are, not even close to each other's core thing. And you're working on similar goals, even with the different values.
Laura Jean 16:39
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that values just, there's just so much. like I talk a lot around, talking about values, or coming into a space to bring that shared understanding of what am I talking about when I talk about values and things because they are really different in the way people think, even just think about the word values is, is different. And so having that different way and thinking about it, and you're right, with the words we use. And so I think there's a lot of benefit for people to create their own definition to wrap words around those single words. Because justice by itself could mean a plethora of things versus how you actually want to act into justice, how you want to show up, to create that value. a space for that value to thrive in the world or to just be in existence. And having that is, I think, so important around value so that people can know, what is what do I mean, when I say this word, versus like, and I think that sometimes values themselves get a bit they've been co opted by corporate, you've been there, where it's like, these simple words that, that have all of this stuff around them. But you know, it doesn't actually change anything, mean anything, necessarily. Might to some people. But yeah, so I think that that's a really important piece of getting there really, getting really clear on our own. What we mean by values, what we mean by things, and I love how you do that in your work. A really, and I'm a bit of a word nerd, too. I love getting really picky in there and really going like, well, what does that mean? Or what do we want that word to mean? Even more importantly, because, you know, it's all pretty much arbitrary, we can make up our own, just make it up, you know, words are what we have made them to mean. And I think we can create, there's opportunity for shared understanding, but there's also opportunity for disconnect there when we're operating under those same words. So, yes, that is really important around values to get clear on what we mean by that. And talking about them.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 18:44
Yes. So I'm super nosy. If you're willing to share some of your values. This is totally inappropriate. I don't clearly I don't know how to do a podcast interview.
Laura Jean 18:55
Are you interviewing me now? What is going on? Are you breaking the rules?
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 19:02
I'll give you a hint on mine. Curiosity might be one of them.
Laura Jean
Well, I can share with you my values that are well, the words that I've currently wrapped around my values, because one thing I operate under with values is that they change. And they have to as we change as our understanding of ourselves, and words and the world changes like they do Shift. Yeah, so I have a value around justice, then that comes up in my first value. So my value around that fairness and justice is 'doing things differently to create fair and just spaces for all bodies and all humans'. Now I've also probably should caveat I think most people following along would maybe have heard this before, but I think values are actionable. And they're also aspirational as well. So I action into my values, and I also aspire and recognise that you know, those parallel lines that will never meet that. Yeah, I dream as well as as act in to it. I think we can have both. So yeah 'doing things differently to create fair and just spaces for all bodies and humans' and the words there are fairness and justice, 'conservation and wise use of resources for myself, my community and the environment as a whole'. And in wrapped up into that are words that people would think, maybe not think of in that sentence, but there's compassion, there's kindness, there's, you know, agency, there's yet, you know, sustainability and pieces like that, 'seeking and creating new opportunities to develop, grow and connect to others'. So that's all about connection, you know, creating ways to connect to people. And also it wrapped up in that is my, I don't know, what the word would be, it's not really desired, but just my drive to, to know and to learn, and maybe it has been a bit noisy, but also it's about, you know, finding information, finding knowledge and things. And then how do I integrate that in my connections to myself and to other people. And then also cultivating spaces of care connection and collaboration. And that is around Yeah, belonging. community, being together, because I don't think we get through this without that. So they're my values and they're the words like, you know, if you do like a values exercise, often you come up with this list of words or whatever it might be. And so that's how I've kind of wrapped words around my words, to make it actionable. Yeah. Actionable and aspirational.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 21:25
Okay, so that makes sense. I, part of the reason that I asked was, as you were talking about, like, the way that we use words, and the way we share words, and trying to understand what we mean, when we use words together, it's like, do you I've been watching the was it the Bourne Legacy, it's one of the Bourne Identity movies, I, I sometimes will watch the same movie over and over and over again. So this is the one that I've been watching lately is like Bourne Legacy. And there's a line in it, where Ed Norton is talking to like a general in the army. And he's like, you keep using this word. And I want to understand what you think you mean when you say it. And that's kind of like this conversation of, okay, so what do we mean when we're when we say, even the word values? And then what, what do I mean, when I say the word fairness? Or the word justice? Or what do I mean, when I say all bodies, like you get even more precise, and you're talking about human like all humans. And I was wondering what the values were that drove how you were talking about the way we use words, and I was like, I wonder if, at first I was like, maybe precision is in there? And I'm like, no, no, that's mine.
And then I heard like, oh, wanting to communicate and connect and learn. And it felt like, oh, I want to have these expansive conversations, where everybody is included, and we get to actually know one another. And then when I asked you about your values, I started to hear some of that come out. And and I got to hear even more precision about what you actually have.
Laura Jean 23:08
So yeah, yeah. And that would be something. Yeah, exactly. That of that, wanting those conversations and wanting, yes, everyone to be included in the conversations. And, you know, and yep, that opportunity for people to be seen, known and heard. It always comes back to that for me, with what I do and how Iaspire to show up, I shall say.
Yes. You know, and but of course, like you mentioned before, we don't, we also have these other commitments that sometimes create a disconnect for us. And I think, yeah, like just working on that, and creating that space for us to come together. And one of the pieces that has really helped me through my conversations with you and working with you, and I'd love to introduce this idea in our conversation and hear more about it from you, or just just hear you explain a little bit or it took to it however you like, but he's around that idea of deciding first. And so I think when it comes to values, and, you know, I talk a lot about acting in our values and showing up in our values. It's actually making that decision, you know, creating that space to decide to be that first before we, you know, get caught up in the traditional, more traditional or more way we're kind of, I don't know sort of sidetracked to think of it as in like, we've got to figure it out all out first and then act. then to actand decide so you talk about deciding first and taking action and through that comes out clarity. So I love that and it really I found it both enlightening, but also just like almost like taking a bit of a burden off in some ways because I feel like that process of getting stuck in the 'how, like how am I gonna figure it out? You know, how am I gonna make it you know, create all this space?' It's, it's popping that to the sideand just that decision is almost a little bit freeing for want of a a better word, and you probably got a better word, so throw it at me to decide first rather than get caught up in the how piece.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 25:03
freeing works, I think that's a really great word for it, it's, there's the trap of getting caught up in how like, I'm trying to think of an example that would be relevant to you or anybody listening. So let's say that you have this value of making space for, for all bodies, all humans, that you want to have this, this inclusivity. And you want to have connection and, and I'm throwing in the word care, I'm throwing in a bunch of words. So if I'm just like all over the place, and you're like, that's not my value at all, just correct me out loud, please. But, and I, I noticed this about how you showed up, in disobedient school, the way that you you held, what people were sharing and the way that you like, really listened. And I could see, now that I hear your values explicitly articulated. I'm like, Oh, I can see you doing that, in real time in real space. And you couldn't possibly have known how, like, you couldn't have just like said, 'Oh, I know how I'm going to show up for each conversation of disobedient school. When when somebody says this, I'm going to have this expression, or when somebody'. If you can't possibly see the future, and figure out how like, if my if my child is sick, but I've already committed, I don't know how I'm going to... you can't know how you can't possibly know how because the situation hasn't arrived yet. And you don't know what's going to be in front of you. And I hear the I have decided to be this person in the world.
So if I say I have decided to be kind, and I keep using kindness, it's hot for me right now. I really, I'm diggin kindness at the moment. But say I've decided to be kind. And I have like, I have decided to be kind. And last night, I was deeply upset. I was really tired. I hadn't gotten enough rest, and I was up way too late two nights in a row. And by the second night, I was not feeling kind. And if you had asked me two weeks ago, like so, that second night where you don't get enough sleep, and you know, Ben, I'm gonna use the word is harassing me. He wasn't harassing me about like, I was talking to him about my workshop. And I was like, 'Hey, can I run some ideas by you?' And he was questioning them. And I'm like, 'You're harassing me, I don't need this kind of critique. I'm too tired'. But if you had said Okay, so when you've gotten two terrible night's sleep in a row and your partner is harassing you, and all you want is encouragement about your workshop that you've got coming up, and you're probably dehydrated, and you're perimenopausal and like, how are you going to handle that? I couldn't possibly tell you. I couldn't possibly tell you how I would be kind during that. But I had to make the decision first. And so when the when it came last night when I was very overwhelmed and very tired. I was like, I don't feel kind but I've already decided to be kind. And how will make itself known because I've already made the decision.
Laura Jean 28:34
Like, makes me think of to cut you off. But it makes me think of what you what you've shared around like about boundaries are basic, it's that commitment to what we've done, which makes me think of that, in that conversation. You know, it's often I think people think of boundaries as the way to keep everything tight and in control. Versus it actually is just the follow through of the commitment that you've made.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 28:57
Yeah, the moment you said, boundaries are a way to keep everything tidy and in control. I was like, waahahaha - jokes on me.
Laura Jean 29:06
I mean, I may not I don't think like I don't know, I'm just guessing some people may sometimes labour under that assumption that that's what a boundary could do. I mean, I wouldn't understand that myself. But possibly people might feel like boundaries could be the way that they could create a feeling of control. But you know, just hypothetically speaking,
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 29:29
neither one of us would know anything about that. Yeah, that's that is putting the hell before the what, right. Like if I, if I make a boundary, that Ben's not allowed to ask me any questions about any of my work that might challenge some of my thoughts after 10pm. That's a boundary it's like, okay, and then what I'm never going to feel tired again. Or I'm never going to feel like some doubt about something that I might be presenting or like, do I get to avoid all of the kinds of engagements and kinds of feelings that I don't necessarily want to have, because I've made this rule. And it's really the other way around like I, I commit to, okay, you know what, I'm going to commit to making sure that I get enough rest. I'm going to commit to communicating what it is I want. So I broke my own boundary last night, I stayed up until 2am. And even when Ben was like, Don't you think you should go to sleep, like you have a thing tomorrow? And I'm like, No, we can talk about like, you know, not tending to what I actually needed. And then not being clear with myself or with him, like, I want to talk this through with you. And what I want back is encouragement, and complements, please. And thank you.
Laura Jean 30:54
Which I think is a powerful piece of relating, which I've learned from you. And let's pick that up in a sec. But one thing that I wanted to just highlight is I feel like boundaries, like boundaries without the decision are rules. And that was a little epiphany I had through disobedience school was like, actually, before we've decided the thing, or how we're going to show up, we're actually just creating rules, you know, and a sense of, basically a sense of control. But yet, but but when we've created when we've made the decision, the boundary is simply that commitment to that decision. And it's while not easy it's connected, there's ease, there's an awareness of of that versus like, I think that traditional way of thinking about boundaries as things we set in place first, which actually really just a rules. And then it's like, well, now how am I going to keep the rules in place? It's like, okay, how am I going to get this, I'll create all these boundaries, quote, unquote, okay, then it's like, how do I make people stick to my boundaries? You know, then it's like this just the roller coaster of how do I do it? How do I do it? Versus what boundaries could and can be when we start from that point of, I decide, and the value is just well, how do I keep that decision to myself? And to my values? How do I, How do I keep that commitment?
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 32:10
Yeah, without that hopeless attempt to make other people follow our rules and live into our values for us.
Laura Jean 32:17
That'd be nice. That'd be nice. So I just did a podcast just dropped that I mean, our's wont go for a little while, but it was around like doing better with our social media messaging, and around that piece of like, dietitians at holiday time you turn up to an event, and there's always memes and funny things, about dietitians, not wanting to say I'm a dietitian, because then people are going to bring up stuff. And for a long time, I was sort of like, okay, what's the piece here? What's the bit and then I realised, oh, it's because we don't, we, and I'm including myself, don't necessarily want to put in place the boundary when the person brings up the thing. So we want the person to be different, like, Don't annoy me about your keto diet, or whatever it might be. Or we want to create a space where we don't have to put in place the boundary because the way the conversation would have to go then is someone brings up and you have to say, Yeah, I have a no for that. I am not here for that experience or that conversation. And because we are as a general group characterised as you know, people pleasers, a bit all those sort of pieces a bit boundaries, and conflict, quote unquote averse, then it feels easier to just say, I'm an accountant, actually I should say another example because apparently that means other things that I didn't know. I'm a, you know, I'm a teacher, or whatever might be as a way to Yes, circumvent that. So I've been thinking about boundaries.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 33:36
Yeah, so it sounds like there's a rather than try to navigate hiding during the conversation. I'm just going to hide upfront and cut it off with a pass.
Laura Jean 33:49
Yeah, because I think, I think a lot of people don't actually think it's an option to say to a person who engages in that conversation to actually then say, I have a no for this conversation. Like I think that's the piece. I don't think people are doing it on purpose. Really i think it's more like, I don't know that people know, probably because we've been taught to believe we don't have that option of saying, yeah, no, I don't want to keep having that conversation.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 34:20
There's so much in that there's so like, there are so many rules buried in there. Not even buried, but like, I'm not allowed to have a no
Laura Jean 34:29
Blining in neon lights.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 34:30
Yeah, like, I'm not allowed to have a no, I'm not allowed to have wants of my own. I'm not allowed to advocate for myself. I'm not allowed to be impolite. I'm not allowed to like hurt people's feelings by not wanting to talk about the thing that they want to talk about. Like they're all these rules for how do I keep the veneer of harmony on this conversation? And then we end up If somebody does this with me, I end up missing out on who they are, and what they're really about and what they care about. And then they might miss out on me, which seems like maybe one of the goals. But, but I, I do love. And maybe I'm a weirdo this way, but I like a no, just as much as I like a yes. Because then I can go after that. Just like, oh, wow, you're not here for the conversation. Like, you don't want to hear about my special, like bean protocol thing right now. Great. So what do you care about? Like, what is the, you know, tell me more about what's important to you. And today, we were talking about, you know, values and judgments being so linked together, it's like somebody's judgement is really kind of helping us. Our own judgments are pointing us toward what we value and what our expectations are and what our priorities are, etc. But like, if you have a judgement, if you have a no if you have something or you're like, not here for it, I get to, I get to find out more about you. Whereas if you just say, Oh, I'm an accountant, I'm like, really?
Laura Jean 36:19
Okay. Yeah, yes. It's very, very much a shutdown of knowing, isn't it? But that, but you're just saying there Yeah, about being a bit of a weirdo because you want to know that. So it's kind of funny, kind of, because somebody I reached out to somebody to ask if they wanted to chat on the podcast. And they said they weren't doing podcasts at the moment. And my first instinct was to write back and say, I love that. Like, as in I love that you have a note like I but I really did. I really appreciate it. It was just a BAM, like, this is me. I have a no for that. As it's like, but I didn't write back on my maybe I'll go back and tell that I really loved that boundary. But I really just, I was like, really excited about getting a no, so maybe I'm a weirdo too. But yeah, anyway, this reminded me of that experience that I had. I'm glad to have that. No. And you could just communicate that with me with ease. And just yep, that's great.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 37:10
You know, I, I'm going to guess, and you can tell me if this is part of your experience. But when people give us such an easy clear, not loaded with anything, no, it's such permission. It's such a great model. And it's such permission for us to go, Oh, I could do that. Like what a gracious No, I could offer a no in a similar way. If I was invited to do something that I don't actually want to do. And I can just be clear and be gracious about it. And then I don't ever have to think about it again.
Laura Jean 37:46
Yeah, yes, definitely. I think there's those that piece I have to talk about that like when we show up in that commitment to our own values and how we want to show up, then we create spaces where other people see Yeah, oh, I can do that, like that shared, shared space. So there was definitely that and it was just that whole clarity piece of like, there wasn't any waffling around or any like, I'm sorry, you know, maybe I'll get back to what it was just like, I'm not doing that like, I don't do that. It's like, okay, no worries, it's so clear. You just know exactly where you stand, you know, there's no need for my hyper analytic mind to create like, or anyone's mind to create a story around that it's very clear that it was just like, Oh, I really appreciated that. And then wanted to, like, celebrate them for doing that. But then I was like, they might maybe think, you know, then I started managing, managing their reaction. Of course,I overstepped my responsibility, there James-Olivia. Just suffice to say I didn't reply about that.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 38:45
And I hear you considering that you might still do it. You might still reply.
Laura Jean 38:49
Yeah, it's been studied in the back of my mind, but I've been like, how do I, I'm over. I'm over, you know, overworking? Because like, how do I say that? I actually really do appreciate that with that. Without that coming across? Well, I just do it. Don't I just do it by actually my own intention? Because it's not my responsibility and none of my business, the other piece of it.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 39:08
And okay, so my question there is, what value? Does that speak to that you hold? Like you the wanting to reach out and say, Oh, thanks. I really appreciate this No. Is it maybe has some significance to one of the values you hold one or more?
Laura Jean 39:28
Yeah, absolutely. It's that space for connection because there's true connection there when we show up as ourselves. Absolutely. and it creates that opportunity for connection. And like you say, potentially for connection and not without an agenda for it to deepen, but for it to be. Yeah, to be there. Yeah.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 39:52
Okay, so the fairness for you is, I hear part of it is like, you get to also take up space, like you get to be one of the voices in the conversation. It's not just a, Hey, I extended an invitation and you gave me a no and then boop, I go away. It's Oh, and and wow I'm still here, I'm one of the bodies in my own vision for the world.
Laura Jean 40:18
Absolutely, absolutely. That and that is the piece that, you know, is I think, hard, it's probably not the right word. But a bit easier to put to the side is extending our values to ourselves? Absolutely. including ourselves in our value statements and how we show up. Absolutely. Work in progress.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 40:37
I love this. This is fun. I love hearing the things that we grapple with in real time. Like,
Laura Jean 40:45
yes, it's always fun to talk those through with you. Because it's like, it's like, okay, I know, you're going to be not saying this. But you know, like, okay, yep, that's not responsibility, what they say, but, and it's, it's nice having that background of my values behind that conversation, because then it allows, it really is that opportunity for us to ground our actions, which I talked about a lot is like our decisions and how we show up. It's not just, you know, living into our values, despite all things, it's around, okay, well, when I take that action, what values are present? Or what is the What's that preference? What's that want that I have around that value? That would be maybe met by this action? Or maybe not met by this action? Like, does it move me towards my values? Or not? Yeah,
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 41:32
yes. We can decide from there.
Laura Jean 41:36
So yeah, we got a bit railroaded by that, with that decide, act clarity. Was there anything else you wanted to say around that? Because I took us on a few tangents as I'm want to do.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 41:45
I tried to think if there's something specific and relevant, probably, but I'm just having so much fun, like rabbit trailing, following wherever we go. So I'm just gonna take a sip of water and follow you wherever you are.
Laura Jean 42:00
Okay, well, let's take a I don't know, maybe it'll feel like a little bit of left turn, but I don't think necessarily, because maybe it is a piece of that is. benevolent contempt, one of my favourite spaces, to to think about. when I came across this idea through your work around that, I was just like, oh, yeah, that's the thing. As dietitians as people in health professions, anybody who does work with other humans, or connects to other humans or in any way. But particularly for health professionals, we're basically trained to hold all humans that work with us in this space of benevolent contempt, to fix, to make, quote, unquote, make them take action, to motivate people to do all these things. And so, I've talked about it a little bit, but I would love to, for you to, if you are open to, talking about that. And maybe what gets missed when we're focused on that, but also for us, as well as other people, but also like, I don't know, I don't know what I don't have an agenda about what I'd like I just, it's a juicy topic. And I know it's one that the dietitians and health professionals. You know, if they're doing kind of that work around it, it's a big one to untangle to. Yeah. to disentangle from.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 43:27
Yeah, okay. Oh, wow, this is a can of worms, my goodness. (Laura Jean: ping, Open up). So, I, I love that. You get to speak to it directly in, in the industry that you're focused on. So like dietitians, and it's everywhere. It's, it is all of us everywhere. In any I'm going to air quote, helping profession or healing profession. We have a desire to help right, we have the desire to share what we know. the desire to make people's lives better, the desire to ease suffering. And so it's like, Hey, I have this thing. I have this tool, I have this answer. And the contempt part is, I know better. I see more than you do. I have an answer that you can't possibly have on your own. I am in some way superior. Not that, you know, you're it's not disdain. It's like, oh, you're a terrible person. The benevolent contempt is like oh, you wonderful, sweet human whom I want to help. Let me show you the way and there's this thing that Ernie Meadows would say, here let me help you the monkey said as he put the fish safely up a tree. It's like we think that we have the answers. I'm using we I'm gonna start saying me,
Laura Jean 45:10
You can say we, I feel like all of us and myself included are comfortable with that, we're in there.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 45:16
yeah like we have these answers we we know the right, you know, food plan for your ailment, I know the right strategy for the relationship that you're fucking up on your own over here like, like, we know all these things that other people don't know. And it's such a, it's so baked into supremacy culture, it's so baked into colonisation, it's so baked into, let me go into wherever I'm going with my answers, with my knowledge with my superior, whatever it is that I have, and help you. before I get to the place where I'm relating to you and even understand you and know, like, what it is that you want, whether or not what I have is actually a resource for what you want, whether my support and my help and assistance are even wanted. So not to dismiss the benevolence part of it, but the contempt really outweighs it. I'm I may be going down a rabbit hole here. Where do you want to go with that?
Laura Jean 46:34
Well, I think that like that really traditional way of teaching. Yeah, kind of really just packages a lot for us. And I think a lot of the dietitians and health professionals, people listening here probably are at that point of like awareness. Like, that's not how I want to show up, I want to be able to hold space for people to bring themselves to, I want to create a way of, of having that lived experience be in the room and in the conversation. So I I think to generalise them to pardon me, listeners, if this is not where you're at, but like, you know, to sort of say that sort of roughly, I would say where people are in some people possibly further along or what in there, but and then yeah, so I don't really know I don't have have a place I want to go I just find it. It's such an interesting topic conversation, because it's so baked into humans, but our culture, supremacy culture, but also particularly into our professional, or how, what's the way out from that? Tell us, you know, tell us the thing. Give me the answer. So how, and maybe maybe this is the thing, maybe this is the lesson of modelling it for us? I'm not sure. I'm not going to tell you what to do. I don't know better than you, I"m not going to bring my benevolent contempt. So if we're in that space, we kind of got that awareness. And we're curious,like, how can we do it differently? First we can decide, but like, what does it look like? How do we get curious? That's part of it. know in my head, like what I work on around around it, but I would like your, I would like your experience or your your insight around it too.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 48:13
I love talking about what I know.
Laura Jean 48:17
Yes. And you have full permission to tell us tell us the thing. And yes, definitely.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 48:24
Okay, so what I what I kind of want to caution against is the pendulum swing from I have, I have the answer, trademark, copyright whatever. Or I have all the answers or whatever it is, like I'm, I'm the authority here the pendulum swing is sort of, I think, pretty common in the coaching industry, which is you have all the answers you need inside you. And that may or may not be true. You know, I didn't know anything about potassium, and magnesium. Before I did a bunch of tests with my naturopath. Many years ago, I didn't have the answers inside me to my own to that kind of thing. And that's not to say that my naturopath was the answer to everything for me. Same thing with dietitians same thing with coaches, same thing with consultants and healers and teachers and clergy and like, you know, doctors and all of the people who help other people. So I don't think that the answer is to swing the pendulum in the opposite direction. To say like, from I have all the answers to you don't need anybody and you have all the answers yourself and to dismiss what we have. So if you're a dietitian listening to this and saying, Well, if I don't have the answers then maybe you know, my work is garbage. It's not like you have something so valuable and people are coming to you going, like you have information that will be a resource for me being more well, for me having more energy or feeling the way that I want to feel. And so it's not to, to either, you know, put yourself on a pedestal, or throw yourself in a dumpster. Like these are not the only options. I think the thing that I love to bring into it, and not to say this is the answer, but it speaks to one of my values of curiosity is relating to the person in front of you, who's come to see who's saying, like, I think you're a resource for for helping me feel the way that I want to feel and live the way that I want to live, and engaging with that person exactly where they are, and finding out, like, what is the way that you want to feel? And what are you willing to do and what, you know, what kind of relationship with a dietitian works for you. And there are lots and lots of questions to, to possibly dig into with a person about who they are and what they want and where they are and what they're willing and unwilling to do. Because perhaps one of the answers that I have for them isn't going to work for them. But they're going to reveal something about themselves to me, where a new possibility emerges that I would never have thought of, without their without their Yes, or their no first. thing like, Oh, I'm unwilling to eat broccoli, fuck it, it's never going to happen. Okay, like, it's just never gonna happen. It's like, oh, but I recommend broccoli to everybody. It's like, now one of the possibilities is I get to learn maybe even more than I knew before.I'm being nudged, to increase my own body of knowledge. Now I'm being nudged to get more creative. And we can get creative together. And oh, my gosh, what is even possible here, maybe I develop a whole programme for people who hate broccoli. I'm just making shit up. And it's basic and probably hilarious to anybody who's listening.
Laura Jean 52:16
It's good, it's just got that just nice element of it. hilariousness to keep it keep it like, you know, not hitting any bones.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 52:26
So, you know, if I was to throw out an answer in one word, I would say relating. And not the answer for everyone. I'm sure I'm sure that there are cases that you have that prescribing is a is more of the correct answer for that person in that situation? I don't know.
Laura Jean 52:57
Yeah, there definitely would be in the area of dietetics. Where that would be like you know, you have to calculate a tube feed for somebody that is just, it's not about so much preferences, or which flavour, they can't taste it. You know, it is what it is There absolutely are I think for most, most of the dietitians possibly, that I connect with in my work are definitely more in that spacemof working with humans and trying to create those ways of relating and building their skills. So I really appreciate that piece of, we don't have to throw ourselves out and our work out. But it's finding that place of discernment in the middle. And that's where I think values are so important, because it creates a starting point for like, how do I want to relate like, what do I want to bring into this space of relating to other humans, and meeting them and creating that opportunity to know and find out how they want to relate? Relate on that individual basis?
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 53:55
Yeah, and given what it is I want to bring, am I the resource for this person? Or, or is my best possible contribution to this person's well being making a connection with someone else who might be a better fit for the kind of support that they need? Because we don't have to do all of these things alone. Right part of this is, is in community and in the collective and caring for one another. knowing that I can't possibly have, I mean, I certainly don't have all the answers for even myself. So how, like I can't possibly have all the answers for other people and all of the things that they want to do. None of us can like there's not a single one of us who's going to be able to have all the answers for the person in front of us. We get to do, it's not that we we can't do it alone, but we get to do it with other people. We get to cultivate the world that we want with other human beings.
Laura Jean 55:09
Yes, because unless we want to go, yes, live on an island somewhere or in a hut in the woods, I suppose it's going to involve other people no matter.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 55:16
Oh, that just sounded so good, though both of those things
Laura Jean 55:19
I know. Well, I'm less about the island, but more about the hut in the woods. Yeah, I definitely daydream about my little cottage in the woods. One day, I feel like I might have a tiny house somewhere in the woods. And nobody knows where it is, we'll just escape to leave all the things behind all the adulting, all the lifing.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 55:41
Now everybody's gonna know where to find you.
Laura Jean 55:43
Well, there's lots of woods in Australia. So they'll, they'll know, they'll have to narrow it down. Well, I won't, I'm not giving any more clues on where it will be.
okay. Yes, but I think that that. Yeah, like it. I like that, that piece of what is there is, it's not just about creating a different way of being as dietitian so that other people can experience what it's like to be with the dietitian who does things differently, but it's the opportunity for us to do whatever we want to do with it, but to grow or to, to build our own skills or our own way of relating, like to be to build that breadth and depth of that, to be able to bring to experiences, you know, each subsequent experience has the potential then to support us to bring more tools in our toolbox kind of thing. We don't have to throw out any of those tools, but just creating a space where we can relate and Yeah, we can do that. Which I think a lot of dietitians, particularly in the non diet kind of, human inclusive, I will say human centred way of working loaded, dieticians and that space. Want that and want to move towards that. And so, yeah, I think that it's that existing in the system as it is now, existing as we are currently while envisaging and working towards the world we want to see. And taking care of ourselves in that process?
Yes, well, this has been delightful. I hope that everyone listening, enjoyed it as much as I did. And having your insight on my current, you know, things coming up for me, but also, yeah, going down those little rabbit holes together has been a pleasure.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 57:38
Oh, I love a good rabbit hole, as you know. So thank you. Thank you for running around rabbit trails with me.
Laura Jean 57:44
I could do it all day. Absolutely. Is there anything else that you would like to share or anything that you would like to offer up? For anyone listening? Or anything you've got coming up? This would be next year? But yeah, anyway, anything else you want to share?
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 58:02
The thing that I've got coming up is a deep dive skills. intensive. So a relating skills intensive. So if people are like, Well, how do I relate? Like how do I? How do I set my boundaries and my commitments and not be a dick? And how do I like show up with what I have? And how do I not hide in the beginning of the conversation or run and hide in the middle of the conversation? And how do I like how do I show up in ways that are more me and and not be afraid of difference or not be afraid to say no. That comes up next February. So there's plenty plenty of time. But that's a thing coming up in the spring. So that is the relate skills intensive?
Laura Jean 58:52
Yes. And we referenced it throughout, but I worked with James-Olivia through disobedient school, which I would highly recommend to any humans who want to have some uncomfortable conversations and dig in further if you have been following along with James-Olivia's work on Instagram. digging a little bit further around that and we'll of course link to your Instagram underscore it's underscore at the start isn't it underscore inquisitive human
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 59:20
inquisitive underscore human? (Laura Jean: there you go). I think so, I hope so. I hope I just told you the right Instagram address.
Laura Jean 59:28
I'll put it in the show notes people can just clicky clicky and not have to worry about it. And also link to your website which has all of your things on there. Yes. Great.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 59:40
Thank you.
Laura Jean 59:41
Thank you so much for being in conversation it's always a pleasure to chat to you and like I said I reference you in like probably every least every second podcast I thought it was about time I just got you on the podcast. It was like you know you can find this the link to James Olivia's Instagram through probably like most of my podcast shownotes because I'm often referencing something you've said or something you've maybe thought of, or, you know,
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 1:00:06
I'm blushing, I'm getting warm, but thank you.
Laura Jean 1:00:09
I really truly appreciate you. I hope you know that I know I've shared that with you, but I'll share it with you publicly. For all the welds here. I truly appreciate you. You are an amazingly amazing human and I feel really, really appreciate that we are doing life at the same time and have had the opportunity to connect.
James-Olivia Chu Hillman 1:00:28
Likewise, it is mutual.
Laura Jean 1:00:31
Excellent. Well, thank you for giving your time to us to have a little bit of listen to us chat along and if you've got any questions, comments, concerns, feel free to reach out and absolutely if you aren't already, head over and follow along with their questions with James-Olivia. Get a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit inquisitive and do life a little bit differently. Okay, until next time, bye for now.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
