62 Is your trauma running your business with Nicole Lewis-Keeber
Trauma is something that most humans have had experience with but the impact it can have on your business, particular your relationship with your business, is not often considered.
Today I'm in conversation with Nicole Lewis-Keeber, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, business therapist and mindset coach who works with entrepreneurs to create and nurture healthy relationships with their businesses. Nicole writes and speaks about the impact of small t trauma on businesses but her biggest, more important work is in combining therapeutic processes with business coaching to help entrepreneurs build emotionally sustainable & financially stable businesses.
Such a great conversation covering a variety of topics, including:
- joining the dots between trauma & entrepreneurship
- the weaponisation of 'mindset' and what's often actually going on
- Big T & little t trauma
- how trauma might show up in business
- the link between a drive for control & trauma
- cultivating a healthy relationship with your business
- developing an 'emotional stability' plan
- business as a tool to meet your needs
Let's dive in.
Episode Transcript (subheadings included)
Laura Jean 0:03
Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of The dietitian values podcast. And it's a day we have a guest with us today. And I'd love to welcome Nicole Lewis-Keeber. Nicole is a business therapist with a social work background, who combines therapeutic processes with business coaching to help entrepreneurs to create and nurture healthy relationships with their business. So welcome, Nicole.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 1:05
Thank you for having me. Oh,
Laura Jean 1:06
it's great. It's really been lovely to connect, and learn more about the work you do. And yeah, I'm looking forward to sharing that and being in conversation today. Yes, so let's kick off with if you'd like to, I mean, I did a little brief intro, but sort of introduce yourself, in your own words, who you are, where you're from, like, where you're located in the world, I kinda like to know where people are when I'm listening to these conversations myself. So I always ask that question. And also what's lighting your passion at the moment?
Nicole’s Background
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 1:36
So I am Nicole Lewis-Keeber and I have a master's degree in social work. And I'm a licenced clinical social worker. And I am currently doing work working at the intersection of trauma and entrepreneurship. So I'm no longer under my social work hat. But you know, everything comes with you and to everything you do. So, yes, it's an interesting process, you know, to kind of watch from internally and externally with my business how everything I've learned in my training, and all my experiences have just been very relevant for the work I do now. And I feel very grateful for those experiences. As you can tell, I'm from the south in the US. I grew up in North Carolina, but I do live in Lancaster, Pennsylvania now with my husband and our two cats. So we live out here in Amish country, neither of us are from here. He's English. So no matter where we go, someone's interested in one of our accents, and most recently, it's more his than mine. Yeah, but yes, we've lived here for about 12 years.
Laura Jean 2:47
I think all the, at least all the Australians listening can very much relate to that. The interest in the accents when you talk to anyone from somewhere else.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 2:57
Yes, I used to get a lot of attention for mine until we got together. And then people just, you know, we're very interested in his delightful English accent. So it's alrigh, I'll let him have it.
Laura Jean 3:08
He can have the spotlight, the accent spotlight. And so what do you want to just sort of explain a little bit about the work that you do and how it's a little bit different?
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 3:19
Yeah, so it is a little bit different. And you asked the question about what's lighting me up. And what I love about the work I do is that it continues to light me up. I'm always learning something new, about how trauma impacts our lives impacts our business and, our leadership. And I'm always uncovering something new. And I'm someone who loves to learn. And so that keeps me engaged and excited. So I feel very lucky to have found something that I do that encourages me to learn. Because I had as growing up as a kid, I had a learning difference. And so I really struggled in institutions for learning. It's always weird to me that I have a master's degree because no one would have ever thought that so yeah, so it continues to light me up, and they are doing your work outside my window. So if you all hear hammers and nails and things going, it's just you know, it's just life, right? So I apologise if it gets too loud, but we'll just ignore it.
Unknown Speaker 4:21
So what I do is a little different. It's kind of a niche that's evolved over time. When I left the field, I was a therapist for 18 years, I was in some kind of clinical capacity either as a clinical supervisor or as a therapist. I've done EAP work with the military like you name it, I've done it and pretty much every population I have been a part of it, except for I did not work with children. My heart just was not able to, to do that. So I worked with their parents to help their parents be you know, more functioning and whole. But after about 18 years, you know what happens in these, the service oriented and helping industries, we aren't taught how to take care of ourselves. And we aren't taught that the systems rely on us being over givers and rely on us to put ourselves last. And I ended up burning out at about 18 years in and I just didn't know that I could do this anymore. And so I left the field, but I was trying to find something that I could still do to help people because I'm still a helper, can't help myself. I'm still someone who wants to be a part of someone's journey towards wholeness, into learning more about themselves, and to unravelling a lot of the barriers that we have to being our true self.
Joining the dots between trauma & entrepreneurship
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 5:45
And I found out about coaching, I worked with life coach myself. And of course, I had a little bit of a raised eyebrow about coaching as being a therapist, you know, there's a little bit of grey area there that made me uncomfortable, but it was a delightful experience. And in going through that, I learned that hey, I can actually work with people that you know bring all my skill sets, learn some new skill sets, and still help people you know, reach a goal that they're looking to reach. And so I started doing the first training I got to be a coach was to do money mindset coaching, because it was something I wanted to learn for myself because I realised that my relationship with money was very complicated and that I often turned it away and under valued myself. And so I started doing that. And what came about that is that my clinicians hat came with me into to the, to the ring, so to speak. And I started to see that a lot of the clients who were working with me who I think honestly were attracted to working with me because I had been a therapist. Um, they were coming to me for money mindset challenges that were not mindset issues, they were actually trauma responses playing out with their money. And as I began to explore this and get more curious about it and get more curious about my own business as being a business owner for the first time, I started to really see that childhood trauma was playing out in many different ways in their businesses. I started to see it playing out in my own business. And the more I saw this and the patterns came together, the more curious I got about why don't we look at trauma's impact on these places. You hear people say here's your business plan. Here's your sales plan. Here's your marketing plan. No one ever says to you like how do you want to feel about your business? Are there any barriers to entry because of, you know, experiences that you've had before even in the workplace can be traumatising.how do we not bring that trauma with us into our business? So, I've been trying to answer that question for the past six years now.
Laura Jean 7:50
I really love it, Nicole. And I think that people probably resonate with a lot that you shared, you know, being a health professional and a helping professional. And that burnout. Perhaps some people are just surprised you lasted 18 years. Because, you know, for a lot of like a lot of and maybe it's just a different environment. I mean, I probably relate in that I worked in the clinical kind of facing role not acute clinical, but yet for probably around that 18-19yrs before I was like, Okay, I still want to be in here. I didn't get to the burnout point, but kind of wanted that shift. But I think that a lot of the dietitians particularly that I talk to, there's a lot of that burnout a lot earlier. I don't know if you notice that pattern, but anyway, I just noticed that it feels like you know, it's happening a lot earlier than perhaps Yeah. You know, 20 years ago or so for like, for me starting out Yes. So that's but I think people would really relate to that. One thing that you mentioned in there that is a little bit of a pet peeve slash soapbox of mine is the mindset piece. It's something that, when I hear that kind of idea of mindset in the business coaching world, and yes, also the raised eyebrow over this side as well, on the coaching stuff. It feels like sometimes it's used as a bit of a cop out, like there's more going on here. Or like not from not from the human struggling, but from the selling angle 'oh, you've just got to overcome your mindset' kind of thing. Would you like to just talk a little bit to that, a little bit more about what you notice coming up? And what you know, do you think do you think it is ever just a mindset issue? Or do you think there's more going on from the human or from the systems, you know, the system's coming in at us, which is often the angle that I look at, but I love how you're bringing in the individual trauma and nervous system stuff as well. So
The weaponisation of ‘mindset’
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 9:49
I mean, I think if it's me I'll be perfectly honest if I think it's just a mindset issue, then you are benefiting from a wealth of privilege. That yeah, we sometimes things that we need to work through do require a mindset shift, that also needs to be accompanied with understanding how your nervous system works and understanding how, you know, we talked about burnout in my industry, the system banks on us you know, putting the other person first, they bank on the imbalance of care for ourselves and time that we put in. And, you know, I managed to say 18 years because I moved around a lot to different populations, because it kept my interest. And because I had a high level of tolerance for abuse, to be perfectly honest with you, because of my own background. I can tolerate more than maybe other people. So I think if you're just having a mindset issue, then it's either some superficial personal development speak, coming from someone who does not understand how the nervous system works, does not understand these, how these intersections of systems, and who is very comfortable in putting the onus on change strictly on you. And that if you can't change your mindset, then that is your problem as my client, it is not my problem. I've noticed that a lot. And it makes me very upset. When someone can't just flick a switch and their mindset changes, then they are then fired by that coach or fired by whoever that person is. So I find the mindset stuff to be highly problematic. There are some very small instances where I think it could be that simple, but they are not huge life changes, they are not rewiring, you know, your, your brain, they are not, you know, changing how your nervous system brings in data and processes it so I think that the mind, the mindset topic is often weaponized in ways that make me really uncomfortable.
Laura Jean 11:56
Yeah, it's not just me, thanks.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 11:58
No, it's not just you. Did, I got a little fiery, right. So you're
Laura Jean 12:01
Yeah, and, and like I said, like, a lot of the times I sort of looked at it from that system piece, but I think it's both/and, right? And what you're talking about as well, from the human, their experiences, their nervous system regulation, and, and things. And so how do you sort of see that play out or what are the sort of things? Like if somebody was, like, you know, listening along to our conversation thinking, Hmm, you know, interest kind of piqued their? What I mean, obviously, there's probably there's many ways this can play out as there are humans on the world. But what are the patterns? Or what are the things that you see showing up in people's businesses or how they are in their business that is either kind of like an indicator that working with you could be supportive, but also just for themselves to know that there could be something going on here around around my own nervous system regulation, around trauma showing up for me?
How trauma might show up in business
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 13:02
Right. So I think the first thing is, is that the fact that we don't, it doesn't occur to us that trauma could be impacting how we operate within our business within ourselves. And within the people we work with, is influenced by the socialisation, and narrative that we drop who we are at the door, like when we start when you go to work, leave your stuff at home, you know, like there's this expectation of, you're supposed to disembody yourself and who you are as a human, to conform to the place that you are now entering. So there's that just from the beginning, right? Just when I first started talking about this six years ago, people would just look at me and go, Hmm, never occurred to me to even think about this, when it comes to my business, it never occurred to me that how I feel in my experiences could have any impact on what I do, you know, in my business. And so just the fact that that's a novelty to us is part of the problem initially.
Big T & little t trauma
So I think that the first thing that, you know, the first thing that I see with the clients that I work with is, first of all, is educating on what trauma is, because the majority of the people that I work with, or who attend a talk of mine or whatever, they're kind of, their body's kind of going u'hmm, there's something here I need to listen to' but what they do is they sit in the audience dismissing their experience as trauma because we as a society and as culture tend to say, there's this very, very small percentage of what trauma actually is. So, you know, if I took a microphone and went out into an audience, and I'm speaking and saying, you know, what do you think trauma is they would probably say what we, what I call big T traumas like domestic violence or violence in general, or maybe a PTSD from combat, you know, like they're gonna give you these really big impactful dramatic scenarios, which I would call big T trauma. But the truth is, is that many of us have experienced things which I call little T, or small t trauma, that are some people call them micro traumas, that are cumulative in nature that a lot of people are experiencing and be impacted by that they don't realise was trauma. You know, it could be maybe you got bullied in school, maybe you had a learning difference like I did, so that you went to school every day, having no idea what's going on here, that's going to change how you see yourself. And it's going to affect your nervous system about feeling safe and seen and heard and understood and connected. Maybe you move around a lot. And you're always the new kid, like all of these experiences that we have their cumulative in nature, change how we see ourselves, they change how our nervous system tries to adapt for safety and security.
And so many of us don't recognise that those experiences continue to play out in our nervous system cognitively, interpersonally, in our adult lives, including the determination and the motivation to start a business, you know, having some having childhood trauma is a really big motivator for many people to have a business. So when you think about it, it's like motivation, and inception of business usually has some kind of connection to the traumatic experience that you had as a kid. Because you say to yourself, I never want to feel that way again, I'll prove to you that I'm not the person you think I am. I always want to be in control and have all the resources. So I don't ever feel like this again. So the beginning of your business often has its connection to childhood trauma. And that's just the way it can initially start. And before I go to the next one, I just want to pause this if you have anything that you wanted to ask or say before I moved on,
Laura Jean 16:52
no, we don't have to jump on attention now. But the control piece is interesting you mentioned there, because I mean, personal experienc I know for myself, but I wonder, do you feel like that is generally a trauma response as far as for individual. I mean, it could be for systems, of course, as well, because the system we live in, enacts trauma that, you know, makes us want to be in control, of course, as well. But yeah, that's just Do you feel like that, that real desire and drive for control? I mean, nothing's absolute. But is it generally like a high indicator of an issue, like playing out, like a response to holding trauma or holding like, Yeah,
The link between a desire for control & trauma
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 17:29
I think so and when I think about the other because I have like in some categories that kind of rose to the surface as I was doing the research. They're all different, but when you really kind of boil it down, they all come down to some sense of control. For certainty, safety, security. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a big driver.
Laura Jean 17:49
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's and I don't know if you see it, but I feel like it's one that just it really is like, one that comes up a lot. Like as you said, we as an entrepreneur are wanting to have your own business because that's often like a bit of a driver wanting to have that control over time over what we do and how we work and yes, so yeah,
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 18:11
and you know, and those experiences not only are they a motivator and a driver but you know, having that if maybe the trauma that you experience was instability or like I said earlier, my high level of tolerance for really messy situations made me you know, stay in 18 years in the in the social work field and therapy field. You can have a high level of tolerance for stress and you know, those type of things that entrepreneurs experience. And so, I find most of the entrepreneurs I work with can pinpoint when we finally talk about it, and they recognise Hey, this was actually trauma. It wasn't just I had a bad childhood or, you know, someone says suck it up. Everybody had a bad childhood because the people the systems around us minimise our traumatic experiences because the systems around us benefit from those traumatising experiences that we have and participate in it. So once there's some permission given to look at those and say, gosh, you know, my friend group completely ghosted me when I was 12 years old, and I went through junior high or wherever, without any friends, that's a traumatic experience for a lot of people. And so now I have a hard time trusting a team and my business, you know, all of these things matter. So there's some permission that comes into understanding that your nervous system has impact here. And so I think when we can kind of look at that we can get it, we can explore it differently and understand what is that need for control and have more compassion for ourselves and start to notice where it is that we feel challenged to allow ourselves to have the thing that we wanted to have when we started our business like that deeper why, you know if you wanted to have safety and security, but every time you meet your new revenue goal, you never feel safe and secure. You get bigger and more successful, but you never feel safe and secure. When you can understand that, you can actually start to give yourself the emotional payoff that you were looking for that was embedded in your business, but you weren't recognising.
Laura Jean 20:18
Yeah. And so my question did sort of not derail us, but pushed us into something else. So was there other things that you were wanting to mention there? Around so yeah,
Your relationship with your business
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 20:29
I'll continue. Yeah. So then what I see happen is that I believe that your business that you are not your business, I believe that it is something outside of you that you are relating to, it is something that you're creating a relationship with. And that those childhood experiences around trauma, connection, whether we feel seen heard, you know, safe, that the role that we play in those relationships that we have growing up can be played out in the relationship that we have with our business. And so, you know, that's kind of the next step I see people really grappling with is that they're not recognising that their business, even though they may be a business of one, that their business is still something outside of them, that it is not them, and that they are replaying those roles that they've had in relationships with it. You know, for example, within my business, when I first recognised this, as I was creating a relationship with my business that was very demanding and demeaning. I had a very complicated relationship with my mother growing up, I never felt like I could do anything right. I internalised all of that as being my fault. And so interestingly enough, I created the same dynamic with my business and that my business, I felt like I could not do enough, it was demanding, and this invisible, they were always upset with me, you know what, it was very actually, it was actually very different. My clients were fine, it was bringing in revenue to support my household and my business, there was no real indicator that I was failing in my business. But because I had set up this relationship this way, there was no other way for me to process my role in the business until I recognise that and changed it.
So I see a lot of the clients I work with, who have created an imbalanced relationship with their business where their business is like their father, or their mom, or some caregiver that was critical, or maybe it was a coach or a teacher or best friend, someone in their past that they ended up having a kind of like a toxic relationship with in this business, because it's so important to them. You know, if anyone has started a business, they know it's a high dive into personal development, whether you like it or not, and it brings up all your stuff, it becomes a crisis. And what do we do in a crisis, we revert back to old patterns, even if we thought we had that taken care of, right, my personal relationships were great, my business relationship had turned into a nightmare, because I had, I had reverted back and defaulted into this old pattern. So you know, that's another way that I see trauma impacting people's satisfaction and the emotional sustainability that is available to them within their business as well.
Laura Jean 23:12
Yeah, I think that's a really good point, I think a lot of particularly some of the dietitians, listening who work in the sort of eating, you know, relationship space would be able to relate to how it plays out with the humans they're working with, you know, you can get things happening. And then when they feel unsafe, they revert back, and we often, you know, really work on creating a space around, you know, awareness and compassion around that. And I really liked that linking, or just overlaying it because it does, because it does play out for us, it just depends on whether it's our relationship with food, relationship with significant people in our life or relationship with our business, you know, and when we're in those stress points or crisis points or and getting started in a business, or even at those growth points can be hard and can be stressful and can trigger that feeling or create that feeling or replicate that feeling of not feeling very safe. And we're not feeling very in control, whatever we're grappling for. And then to understand that if we're doing things that we thought we'd kind of moved away from that, it's that it's probably it could be part of that whole process. So I think that's really something that people probably can relate to, or see, you know, 'I thought I'd worked on my overworking' or, you know, 'I thought I'd gotten more into a routine of prioritising myself care', and then all of a sudden, I get busy, and it goes out the window. And it's like, Uh huh. And sometimes that can just be busyness and time but but it could be, I suppose just a pause point really, right. So like, an opportunity just to get curious around what's what's going on. And so someone was listening. Sorry, Nicole.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 24:55
Was curiosity.
Laura Jean 24:56
Yeah, if someone's listening and thinking, Hmm, I wonder if this could apply to me like, What would you suggest about how to start kind of getting curious around what's going on for people and their bodies and their relationships with their business?
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 25:10
Yeah, I always ask people to think about, if your business was a person outside of you, or some kind of entity outside of you, and you had to personify it, you know, Whatwould come to you? what is the personality of it? What is the characteristics of it, you know, maybe what is the colour of it? How do you feel about it? And if you were to pull some of those things together, either create a person that you recognise, or ask where have I felt this way before? Where's this person been in my life before? To determine what is the relationship that you have now? Is it supportive? Does it feel like it's a collaborative partnership, you and your business, you feel like you're pouring into it? And you're getting nothing back? You know, so to start to identify, if my business was an entity, who would it be? And how, and who am I? How have I felt this way before? Where have I felt this way before? And what person might come to mind, it could be a mean boss that you had before, maybe like you didn't like. And then to ask yourself, when you think about you, as your own boss, in your business, what type of boss are you? or employer are you? Do you feel like that you treat yourself in your business in a way that you would never accept from an employer, then there might be an imbalance in the relationship that you have with your business? Do you allow boundaries to be broken in your business that you would not be allowing in your life you know, there again, there could be an imbalance there. But it's funny to me, when I give a short talk about this, I usually ask people, so what kind of boss are you to yourself? Do you give yourself breaks? Do you give yourself celebrations? Like do you give yourself raises? And the white colour that comes across people's faces, Like the the pale drain of blood from their faces usually is -Yeah, no, I would never accept the treatment that how I treat myself with my business from anyone I've ever worked with ever, I wish you wouldn't do it. And so that's a place that we usually start is, you know, how good are you being to yourself?
Laura Jean 27:24
You yeah, that's, I mean, I sort of come at it from the point of view are you extending your values to yourself? So I think that kind of goes along with that is like, are you actually, yeah, are you part of your business or the relationship in your business? And I think what's interesting, too, is sometimes I think, like you said, sometimes we can be like, Oh, I never would have accepted that from being employed. And then sometimes we can just replicate those same systems, right, that particularly if it was traumatic, or particularly if it's just what we accept is, that's what, you know, what what those kinds of relationships are, that we can create that dynamic with ourselves in our business, where we're a type of boss that we're replicating the same sort of stuff we've seen or been exposed to, I imagine in our working life, as well.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 28:17
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know about you, I didn't leave my business, my work place to work the same schedule, you know, do the same thing, that that's not what I left for, but it's very easy to fall back intp those roles and those patterns, and I work with a lot of people who are either neurodiverse, entrepreneurs, or people who are starting to have manage some chronic illnesses and that kind of thing, particularly lately. And, you know, I gently remind them, you know, you left the nine to five, you left these systems that were so abusive to you, because you needed to take better care of yourself, why are you trying to replicate that in your business, now, you left so that you can be more have more control over your time and what you do, and it's just so easy to default into the systems that we have just been steeped in for so long
Laura Jean 29:15
Absolutely. And then as you're saying, then also overlay that with the potential to be acting into trauma, and our patterns of creating safety for ourselves. And so if we're looking at that, and we're wanting to, I suppose, actually, before we talk about that, something you mentioned through there, which always gets my attention is around being seen, heard or known. And again, similarly, I think in our work as health professionals, we can recognise that desire or need in the humans we work with, and sometimes not necessarily in ourselves. And I remember watching, I think it was an IG live you did around how you recognised that, things you were sort of doing in your business, that were or ways you could actually create that for yourself to meet those needs. So you know, recognising your needs that you have, and how you can create a business that actually meets those needs, basically.
Your business as a tool for meeting your needs
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 30:22
Yeah, having the business you love that loves you back, right? Not that you just love and you feel abandoned by. you know, when we do a little bit of a deeper dive and dig into, What needs do I have here, you know, with this business, one of the deeper Whys or things that I need from my business is because I didn't feel seen, heard or acknowledged growing up. So many places, including school, and I felt like I was not smart at all, one of the deeper needs and desires I have for my business is to be seen, you know, to be heard, to have my message validated. And to also show that I'm not dumb, right, that I'm smart, I actually am pretty smart, that I have some, I'm a thought leader, and these things are real for me. And so my business has that mechanism for me to give me those things. If I'm not mindful of it, though, the need for those things can also derail me pretty quickly in my business, if I'm not paying attention to them, because, you know, there's the two sides of the coin, right. But also, as someone who has a neurodiverse brain myself there are some things that work for me, that my business allows me to do that really work for me that working in, you know, the nine to five, you know, agencies, it was not useful or helpful to me.
So by acknowledging, you know, this is how my brain works. This is how I work best, you know, this is how I stay engaged and interested, my business gives me that opportunity to do that, as well. So it feels really supportive to have that opportunity. And I was giving a keynote to about 300 Women several years back, and you know, there's this, we talked about this inner kid, there's this younger version of me that is still very kind of traumatised, and afraid that people are going to think I'm not smart, right? So whenever I'm put in the spotlight, you know, high visibility, like a keynote, you know, I have to spend some time with her to say, you know, I get you hate being on the stage. And I get that, you know, this is not where you love to be and, you know, what do you need in order to not feel so triggered? And what I saw early on for me is that giving this keynote, I needed to use notes in order to keep my my brain on track because I can get distracted so easily. And so I just called it out at the beginning of the keynote. And I said, you know, I just need to let you know that. You know, I grew up in a system that did not understand learning differences and was very traumatising for me. And I still have like this seven year old inside of me that is very worried about the fact that I'm using notes up here on the stage because all the other speakers didn't have to. And how about we just, is it okay, if I use notes? Can we let her be fine? And they're all like, yeah, you know. So after that, after that everything was fine. And I got to honour the thing that I needed to be present in my business to be seen, heard and supported in a way that really works for me that the systems around me have not supported me. So that's the beauty of my business is I believe that you can heal through your business, I believe that your business can be the cushiony bits that you needed in these other places that didn't see you, didn't hear you and support you. But we have to kind of figure out what it is that we need,what is the thing that we need, and allow it.
Laura Jean 33:53
I love that Nicole, particularly that just that speaking at wrapping words around it, and just speaking to that, that thing that we're experiencing, because generally like, you know, like you said, it's really received in a way that people like, yeah, of course, absolutely. You know, but we often have these stories around what we think people are goingto think about us, or think about this thing. So that's, I really appreciate your sharing that, I did tear up a little bit, but I'm a bit of an empathetic leaker, at least. Yes, I really, really liked that. So the need piece, I think is a big one, you know, recognising our needs, and then how we can meet them in a way that I'm going to use the word healthy, in inverted commas here, please. You know, versus the ways that maybe push us into those patterns of trying to create safety. So how do we start with that getting curious about our needs or identifying what needs we are looking for maybe in ways that are supporting us and maybe in ways that aren't necessarily.
Creating an emotional stability plan
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 35:03
Yeah, I think I like to call it an emotional sustainability plan when it comes to our business, because we have all the other plans, but we, we really need to understand what we need emotionally as well. And that, you know, identifying what experiences that we had that made us feel that way? What is the reason that we started our business, not just because we want financial freedom or time, like what's the real reason, like, for me, the real reason was, I wanted to have more ownership, I wanted to show people I'm smart, and we like there's a lot of reasons there, so really owning those reasons. Because then what we can then begin to see is, you know, when I'm in default, and kind of out of my window, I default again to my business being really demanding and demeaning with no real good reason. like, everything's fine, there's no reason for this. And so as we can start to look at this is how I know that I need to take better care of myself, or this is how I know that I'm going to use the word triggered, then what we can do is give ourselves what we need there, because now we have a frame of reference to say, oh, you know, to kind of giggle and just say, oh, gosh, my mom's in my head today, at the end of the day and my business, what do I need to do for myself. So when we can recognise, you know, what this motivation to start this business was so that we can give ourselves the thing that we were looking for, so we can kind of nurture the relationship with our business, and begin to see also, you know, how do I tend to get triggered, and during the, the research period that I did, which is still happening, but this really targeted research was, you know, understanding that your trauma tends to play out in our visibility, trust, boundaries, money and that control piece. And as I said, they kind of all come down to that control piece. So if I know that I tend to get more triggered and out of, you know, out of my sense of self, strong self, when I'm doing something to be visible, I know that about myself now, and I can take extra steps. Or I can know and honour that, you know, if I'm visible on a stage, this is much more difficult for me than if I'm on a podcast, I love podcasts. speaking on the stage, I can do it but you saw the gymnastics mentally, I need to get through to get up there. So I know what triggers me when it comes to visibility. And I know that that's a bigger one for me than money. Or, you know, someone else I've worked with who trust is really difficult for them. And it affects every aspect of their business. So they know how that gets triggered for them. And they are working on creating a change for them around what it means to trust someone. trust an employee to do their job, you know, trust that they can trust themselves. So I think what we can do is really start to understand this, create some compassionate inquiry about it. So that it can become a part of our business plan, like this emotional sustainability plan is just as integral, if not more, in many ways to the success and longevity of your business than anything else. And the longevity piece is important.
Laura Jean 38:13
Yeah, that sustainability of you and your business. And that really resonates around that whole piece of just knowing yourself, getting really curious about what's going on what's what, who am I? How am I showing up here? But like you said, knowing what your ymarkers are, or your little signs for yourself, red flags, if you want to think of them like that, that show you're starting to shift around that. And then yes, bringing the compassion and making plans for how you take care of yourself or even deciding if that's apart of your business that you even want to do. And yeah, I think that then once you're really, I suppose, aware or open or curious, then you can actually make those decisions or that emotional stability plan
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 39:00
It impacts how you run your business, it impacts the systems that you create for your business, it impacts how you market yourself, how you have sales conversations, how the relationship that you have with your employees, with your clients. I worked with in groups where coaches who do not understand how trauma's impacting them in their business, then do not understand how trauma might be impacting their clients in a real way. And so they, you know, unfortunately, will see the client's behaviour as being resistant or, you know, they're just not able to change their mindset or they just haven't gotten it yet. And they'll dismiss and discharge this client who's not being resistant and they didn't need just one more, you know, homework assignment from you to drown in. They needed for you to see them and recognise that it's not resistance. They might be having a trauma hotspot here. There's something else going on. And, and so when you can give this compassion to yourself and understand this about yourself and your relationship with your business first, because it always comes down to us first, then you can give that to the people around you and be more curious and have more understanding. And I think be a better boss to others and have better relationships with your clients, feel more secure about how you sell yourself and your marketing, like, it just changes everything, it just changes everything.
Laura Jean 40:29
Definitely, and stuff like that. I think I see more. I don't know, it was my experience, but also like, particularly dietitians, and possibly similar in the social work world is often we're actually better at creating that compassion and space and holding for the humans we work with, not better, but like we more easily do that, then we would do it for ourselves. And I know, you know, a lot of the dietitians in the non diet space they really don't think of clients as say noncompliant you know, in the traditional kind of sense and instead of putting it on the person, are able to get curious and think what else has gone on for that person, what's happening? And then I think, though, we don't do it as easily for ourselves. So often, we're more likely to think of it as an us problem like I have a problem with being visible on social media or I have a problem with talking in public or xyz, when actually there's this opportunity here, from what I'm feeling like from what you're sharing, Nicole is that to get curious, like what went on for us, that creates that belief about ourselves or creates that feeling in ourselves a sense of a lack of safety, or that we have something to kind of, quote unquote, lose when we work in that space? Yeah, so I think possibly, it's another reminder to hold space for ourselves.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 41:56
It really is, you know, I have a programme called 'do no harm' a programme for trauma conscious entrepreneurs. And so many people who go through that programme, say, I wish my therapists would go through this programme, and we've had therapists go through my programme, because I have therapists who want to learn to be more comfortable working with business owners. And one of the most common things that people say when they finish, like, I wish my therapist would get this programme, because I see them abusing themselves with their business, their practice, I see them not caring for themselves, I see them giving too much. And then they're like, I wish that they would do this for themselves and give this themselves as gift because they're valuable, they're important, and their practice, their business, their clinic, whatever it is, they're running, that they don't have to recreate those systems that don't support us and oppress us and tell us how we should be and what professionalism is with all the things. And so your clients recognise you, and how your relationship that you have with your business. And if you are saying one thing to them and doing another they recognise that, they see it, they see it, they see the fallout. So you know, that's, it's not to call anyone out, it is to say that they are longing for us to take better care of ourselves.
Laura Jean 43:20
And of course, when we take better care of ourselves, we can hold space, which allows the humans we work with to take better care of themselves or that aligns with what they need. And so if we recognise, you know, maybe this is like, oh, okay, I could have some things to work on? What are some ways that we can start, it could be strategies, tips, it could be questions to ask ourselves to think about, like, what we could embed in our business and how we could like increase our own window of tolerance around like you mentioned, some of the ideas, obviously, you did in that scenario, but like, what are the things that we can use to build that emotional stability plan out a little bit.
Getting curious about trauma, you & your business
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 44:04
Right, so I actually have, I don't know, if we have the link, I'll make sure you get it, for a trauma and entrepreneurship assessment. So it's free, no, no big deal. And you will get on my list, but you can immediately get off of it. If you want to, you can unsubscribe. And so what you can do is go through that, and it's going to ask you some really targeted questions so that you can get clear about Okay, so what type of experiences am I recognising the pattern still here? You know, and, and help you to start, be curious about, oh, gosh, well, you know, I had this experience, it made me feel this way. I now do these things to not feel this way. How is that showing up for my business now? And if we can increase our self compassion around this permission to say 'I am a human being, it is very unlikely that I did not have some traumatic experience or some experience that changed the way my nervous system operates that is then still playing out for me now', when we can have more compassion around that by normalising that I hate to say normalising trauma, but you know, lowering the stigma around it, that that is the very first thing, because if I asked you to get curious about your inner seven year old who doesn't like to go on stage, or you know, if I asked you to tackle some of these other patterns before you have developed a little bit more of self compassion to say, Well, how could I not have felt this way? How could I not have had this, you know, nervous system, or the trauma adaptation to this experience I had growing up? How could I not have done this? And it actually made me curious and want to be an entrepreneur, it actually had some purpose in it not, I don't want anyone to experience it. But it did give me some skill sets. And it did give me some tolerance for this thing, to lead me into having this business and to be entrepreneurial. So how can I begin to harness that? So I think that we have to start with some self and compassion around what those experiences were and how they led you to where you are now first. So it's kind of a vague answer, because there's no 123 Tip trick here. But I do know that if we go too deep and doing inner child work, first of all, before you've done that, give yourself that compassion and kind of de-stigmatise it for yourself, it's gonna be a lot harder for you to do that.
Laura Jean 46:35
Yes, well, we're used to embracing the grey and the nuances, the less than clear steps, because I think that as as we all kind of get more aware of what's going on for ourselves and for the humans we work with, it becomes clear that when we're provided those kinds of languages, take these three steps or just do these things, it's probably very much an oversimplification of the process. But I will definitely drop the link for that assessment and probably go and take it myself because I do like little assessments or quizzes myself. And sounds super valuable just as a yeah, just as a starting point, like a curiosity. Okay, well, building that awareness around ourselves, and what's going on for us? And how maybe some of these things we feel like we're quote unquote, struggling within our businesses. What else is happening? for us? For sure. Yeah.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 47:29
Because often the struggle is not you. It's something around you that was not supportive, you know, we internalise so much, when so much that we're dealing with was an external system that did not support us or provide any room for us to be who we are.
Laura Jean 47:44
Yeah, it's not not a you problem, not an us problem. And again, I think, for many people knowing that for the humans we work with feels really comfortable and easy. But knowing that for ourselves, or turning that compassion to ourselves is often a bit trickier. Takes a little bit more muscle Flex.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 48:03
That's why I do what I do.
Laura Jean 48:06
Absolutely. And I think that it's something that is not really even being talked about Nicole, and I think that the work you're doing, there's so much scope in there for people to get support to be able to build the businesses that we set out to build in the first place and get the things that we wanted from them. meet those needs, but meet them in a way that actually nourishes us and creates that sense of safety. versus the ways we've adapted to get our needs met, that maybe don't always create that for us, which, obviously, is, is really common with trauma.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 48:48
Right, because it's probably a 10 year old in your head that says when you reach six figures, then you'll be safe, and then you get there and you don't feel safe. So, you know, it's what do you need to feel? So what is the security and safety that is real for you, because that figure is probably not it. it probably comes from some, you know, version of you that doesn't really understand how revenue works in a business.
Laura Jean 49:13
a desire to be safe, a desire to be respected, and all those things, maybe those needs that we're trying to get met. And yeah, just getting curious around that. And like how can we meet those in ways that take care of us? And then also, you know, for me, like, allow us to actually live into our values, the values for the world we want to see versus maybe playing out responses or ways or what we get shown in the business world, particularly which, you know, like, this is how you get your needs met kind of thing, which is, you know, kind of probably a reaction to the trauma of living inside of a supremacy-capitalist based culture. But yes, how we can actually do it in a way that really does actually nurture us and take care of us and take us where we want to go. So, a quote that I often hold in my head is around doing things differently is 'we're planting seeds for a forest we may never get to spend time in'. And so I would like to ask you, if you had a seed that you would like to plant around the work that you're doing here with the eople that are that are spending their time listening in to us chat.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 50:24
I hope that it'll grow for them now, but if not, maybe later, is that if there's something that you say to yourself, often in your business, 'I wish that I could....' write it down, and give it to yourself, because you can have that, you can have that. Don't let it stay on a wish list. You own it invite it in because you can have that as your business, you get to decide what it looks like.
Laura Jean 50:53
I really, yes, I like that I'm writing it down, because I'm going to do that exercise myself. Thank you so much, Nicole. And if people want to connect with you more, learn more about you. We've got the quiz we mentioned and you've got a book as well. Yeah. Like where can they go to find out more information or just get a little bit more curious about the work and the information that you're sharing?
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 51:15
Yeah, so my book is on Amazon, it's called 'How to love your business', you would think I'd have a link to it on my website, but I don't have that on my website. So probably the most updated place to find me would probably be on Instagram, which is Nicole dot Lewiskeeber, or my Facebook page, which is Nicole Lewis Keeber coaching.
Laura Jean 51:36
I'll put the links to all that in the show notes. But if you've been interested around the conversation that iquedicole and I have had, or its practice curiosity, then please absolutely go follow along and connect. I really think this is just another piece of the of the puzzle of really knowing ourselves and getting to know ourselves and coming back to ourselves, through our businesses, in our businesses. So thankyou, Nicole.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 52:03
Thank you for having me.
Laura Jean 52:06
I think it's just really amazing stuff. And just something that no one is really talking about, I don't know anyone else. I think maybe one other the entrepreneurs therapists, but like, you know, not many people are talking about it,
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 52:16
Yes, we're friends. Yeah.
Laura Jean 52:20
Yes. Because you're probably like the only two people that I've come across, you know, having this conversation like, and it's such an important one.
Nicole Lewis-Keeber 52:32
Yes, yeah. Thank you for spreading the word.
Laura Jean 52:35
Yeah. Well, thank you. And thank you for the work you do. And thank you to all of you out there listening and spending your time with us being here for this conversation. And like I said, reach out and connect with Nicole or just go and you know, binge on her IG TV stuff, if you if you're curious about the work that she does. And if you think that this is a conversation worth sharing please feel free to share with other entrepreneurs and other business owners that you know, because I definitely think this is a conversation that is worth us all having or just, you know, planting that seed as a minimum that we can have those things that we're wishing for throughout business. So thanks Nicole and thanks to all of you. And until next time, bye for now.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
